Pride Toronto and QuAIA ignore Mammoliti ultimatum
TORONTO NEWS / Mayoral candidate will lead charge to yank Pride funding
Scott Dagostino / Toronto / Thursday, April 29, 2010
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Toronto city councillor and mayoral candidate Giorgio Mammoliti
It’s Zero Hour for Pride Toronto — at least according to Toronto city councillor and mayoral candidate Giorgio Mammoliti, who tried to reignite the debate over the parade’s inclusion of Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QuAIA) by issuing the Palestinian rights protest group an ultimatum that both QuAIA and Pride have now ignored.

“I’m giving them 24 hours,” Mammoliti told Xtra yesterday, “I’ll give ‘em till midnight tonight. If they [QuAIA] don’t withdraw from the parade, I’ll be drafting up a motion at the next city council meeting asking to get rid of the funding this year completely and any resources that are associated with it. If we’ve already given any money to the parade, we’ll be asking for it back.”

With the deadline now passed, Pride Toronto has not publicly responded to Mammoliti’s edict, which was announced as Mammoliti struggles to turn the page on a controversial plan to equip bylaw officers with firearms.

In March, Pride Toronto announced a plan to vet all signs at the parade through a “freedom of expression policy.” That was met with outrage from appalled artists and activists. They revoked the plan, and since then, Pride Toronto has remained largely silent on the issue, meeting behind closed doors with city officials. Given such tension, why did Mammoliti feel the need to rush a time limit?

“I’m a mayoral candidate and as a mayoral candidate, I need to be stepping up to the plate and giving my views as well,” he says, “I’m very uncomfortable with a group like this alienating Israelis in this city, and I don’t think the taxpayers should be funding any organization that promotes clear discrimination against any one group.”

In a press release yesterday, Avi Benlolo, president and CEO of Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center for Holocaust Studies, commended the push to “deny funding to Pride unless it is willing to comply with the City’s anti-discrimination guidelines.”

Pride Toronto’s parade entry form already includes a promise to abide by the city’s anti-discrimination policy.

Mammoliti’s move was championed by fellow candidates Rocco Rossi, Sarah Thompson and Rob Ford.

Mammoliti admits he has never spoken to any member of Queers Against Israel Apartheid, but he says he has a good sense based on those who’ve contacted him.

“I have looked at every single email that has come my way from both sides,” and insists that “anti-Israeli sentiments have come out.”

Asked if he can provide Xtra with such emails, however, Mammoliti says, “You should talk to the Jewish community itself and recognize how they’re feeling right now. If you have, you’ll know they’re uncomfortable with this whole thing and are encouraging the city to do exactly what I’m suggesting.”

Tim McCaskell, educator, author and member of QuAIA, argues that “comfort” is not a valid reason for censoring legitimate political activism.

“Pride has always made some people uncomfortable,” he says. “If we allow bureaucrats and politicians to ban a group from Pride because it makes some people ‘uncomfortable,’ what’s to stop homophobes from complaining that the whole parade makes them uncomfortable? Will the City threaten funding to placate them too?”

Mammoliti rejects this “slippery slope” argument but, given the hypothetical example of an anti-Catholic group burning the pope in effigy, admits he might ban that group too.

“Possibly, yes, then I may be doing the same thing, but we’re talking about anti-Semitics right now. Anything that accepts city grants to spread this kind of message is wrong. The Pride parade is supposed to be about stopping the hatred. And I think [QuAIA’s presence] is encouraging it to some degree.”
 
However, McCaskell scoffs at Mammoliti’s zeal for fighting discrimination.

“I’ve been a gay activist long enough to remember when Mammoliti argued in Parliament against same-sex equality legislation on the grounds that our ‘body parts don’t fit together,’“ says McCaskell.

He’s referring to an infamous speech then-MPP Mammoliti made when the NDP-led Ontario government debated legislation for same-sex spousal benefits in 1994 — a paranoid rant conflating the adoption of children, polygamy, S&M and sex toys in a future society a century from now. His vision was met with heckling from his own caucus, leading him to weakly declare, “I am not a gay basher,” before crossing the floor to the Liberal party.

Now, he says, “I have learned from my past mistakes...what better voice than my voice to be saying this based on my past mistakes?”

“That’s a little rich,” says Rick Telfer, sociology grad student and creator of a Facebook page protesting Pride Toronto’s now-revoked expression policy. “To be apologizing for your homophobic past at the same time you’re sowing divisions within the lesbian, gay, bi and trans community? How can anybody take him seriously?”

McCaskell piles on, saying QuAIA “won’t be shaken by threats from a homophobe desperate for attention.”

Mammoliti shrugs it off.

“I’m not going to keep apologizing for what I did 20 years ago. I’ve already done that and if people can’t move on, so be it.”

Going into work at Metro Hall today, he says, “I’ll be writing up the resolution that will be going to council to withdraw the funding for this year, along with any resources... the police officers, the clean-up, all that stuff.”

City council doesn't meet again until Tuesday, May 11.

If Pride Toronto ultimately loses its city funding, Mammoliti says don’t blame him.

“It’s the organizers. They’re the ones who have to make this decision. In fact, they don’t even have to — it could be the group itself, withdrawing from the parade. It’s all I’m asking.”

George Smitherman, for his part, issued a statement to Xtra late yesterday condemning QuAIA but stopping short of saying that the city should pull its funding.

“The idea that Pride should be a willing host for anyone to show up and project whatever they want is foolish,” writes Smitherman. “Let’s let Pride be about the lesbian, gay, bi and trans community and not stand by and let it be hijacked by this issue or that.”

The frequently used word in this debate sets Telfer off on a rant.

“Talk about hijacking!” he says. “It’s not that Queers Against Israeli Apartheid is hijacking the parade. One could easily use the same word to describe the level of corporate influence over the parade — not to mention the number of straight pundits and politicians trying to define for our community what Pride is about.”

--with files from Marcus McCann


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Reader Comments


 
Bigot
Mammoliti is a bigot. You can tell from his responses that he doesn't care at all about the families he has harmed. I don't see why anyone pays him any attention.
Randy, Windsor ON
04/29/10 11:52 AM EST
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We don't ban marchers or censor placards
Mammoliti is not the least bit credible on LGBT issues. Like Tim M I remember his homphobic rants on gays in the debate in the 90's when he voted against this own party's motion to include same sex benefits. More importantly though, city hall politicians (including all of City Council or mayoral candidates) should not be involved in who marches or doesn't march in the parade. As long as the placards and chants are within the law it has nothing to do with the city. Nor should Pride Toronto reconsider its reconsideration (having abandoned the foolish idea of an "ethics committee" and censoring participants). I am not a member of QuAIA but I support their right to march as a LGBT group in the event (many political groups march or are welcomed to march including those in favour of Israeli Palestinian policies). We don't ban marchers in our LGBT march/parade or censor legal albeit controversial (or even commercial) placards.
james Dubro, toronto ontario
04/29/10 12:12 PM EST
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Feeling "uncomfortable"
Feeling "uncomfortable" is not a valid reason to censor political speech. How exactly QuAIA's opinion regarding Israel's domestic policies vis-a-vis Palestinians "discriminatory." If QuAIA were actually guilty of of the crimes they have been accused of, then charges would have been pressed by now. Instead, we have the bullying presence of pro-Israeli interests trying to censor legitimate, if "uncomfortable" speech in a parade that is at its heart deeply political. Mammoliti, Rossi, Thompson, Ford and Smitherman are being complete slimeballs by making hay over this issue - none has the fortitude to actually stand up for Canadian values and the actual law.
Dan, Toronto ON
04/29/10 12:25 PM EST
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He Likes To Dig His Own Grave
Giorgio Mammoliti is a fool and nothing more. This guy thinks he stands a chance in the election this year. Even time this fool opens his mouth he sticks his foot in it. He has done a bad job as city official and he would do worst as major. I am glad the people in Toronto can see through him and will not elected him for anything...Mammoliti has never done thing for gay pride in this city unless it makes him look good....Giorgio pack your bags your out of here.......
Danny St James, Toronto Ontario
04/29/10 12:41 PM EST
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A Group that will make Pride Prideful Again!
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=113025575395588&ref=ts
roy, Toronto ON
04/29/10 12:43 PM EST
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Not with my tax dollars!
Perhaps we should have a group marching to demand the expulsion of Muslims with chants of "go home Muslim terrorists!" Should that also be allowed? Yes - freedom of speech is important, but so are the guidelines of the Pride Parade. The anti-semites need to find another place to express their disgusting views and they will NOT be supported by my tax dollars!
David, Toronto ont
04/29/10 1:24 PM EST
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anti jewish or anti muslim chants=illegal,immoral
Wrong David--no slogans of hate against a group is legal and what you suggest is both illegal and immoral. Anti-muslims chants is disgusting as would be anti Jewish placards or chants. This is a group commenting on certain policies of one government (not a people) and I am sure there will be some anti-Uganda government signs too as well as other homophobic human rights violations in the world (including Iran or muslim-run governments/countries ) . And no tax dollars are funding as such any signs or groups marching (thankfully) though commercial dollars are funding some. At the moment I believe Pride T the guidelines are being followed by all. Police can arrest those who break the law against hate crimes or inciting hatred, but otherwise various protests placards/groups are fine in the march/parade as they have always been. It has always been so (even with nudists openly marching for years).
james Dubro, toronto ontario
04/29/10 1:48 PM EST
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Pride Toronto should grow a pair
It's taken 50 years for the mainstream gay community to build bridges and relationships with the rest of Canadian society. Today, kids are still jumping off bridges because the work isn't finished. Meanwhile, this fringe group of a handful of people is destroying that trust and understanding, through a point of view so rarefied and a message so vulgar that even Queen's Park took the time to criticize it. They don't even represent us. There's no-one on the Pride board even remotely associated with them (precisely because they are indeed nobodies). So why are they being allowed to ruin Pride with their message of HATE? With the Conservatives on Parliament Hill, we need to be reinforcing our alliance with the rest of liberal Canada, not destroying it.
William, Montreal QC
04/29/10 2:50 PM EST
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When will we learn!!!!!!
I am sick and tired of all this crap...you have your black's that want to have special right you have Jews that want special right you have French that want special right....everyone has their hand out for a special right....if you think about it that is what is wrong with this world....we are not gays we are not straight we are not black we are not Jewish we are not yellow skin or red...we are humans and that is what we need to focus on this bullshit of knocking down one race or another has gotten us no where...we have not learned with World War one or two or Vietnamese war or any other conflict...we are the dummies and stupidest and poethetic thing on this planet....maybe it is time this planet was nuked so it can start over....as for sure we all and I mean all should be a shame of ourselves we only see differences we do not see the person the people......
DJ, Toronto Ontario
04/29/10 3:12 PM EST
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Let's move on and celebrate peacefully
I wish people would leave there political views at home and not in our parade.If the pride parade organizers had some ball's and to make a fucking decision this mess would of been over month's ago. Pull these radical people out of the parade before they fuck it all up with everyone pulling out leaving no financial support for our parade. Gay people have enough problem's and struggles to deal with rather than having to deal with these types of people with there own agenda. Stop pooping on our parade and let's celebrate our culture and acceptance!!
Jeff, Etobicoke ontario
04/29/10 3:17 PM EST
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Silencio! Il Duce speaks!
I, Giorgio the Great, King of Pizzastan (aka Ward 7 (York West)) hereby order all the no-goods at QuAIA out of town by sundown or I will personally run them out of town myself with my own army of enforcers armed with high-velocity peashooters and self-propelled chicken cannons! Also, I want everyone to know that I am not really a gay-basher and it is pure coincidence that I happen to enjoy bashing gays for fun and political advantage. Il Duce has spoken! Let there be applause and rejoicing in the streets as He imparts his immense wisdom to us!
Yours Truly, Toronto Ontario
04/29/10 3:39 PM EST
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QuAIA bad, Coulter good?
Interesting how the right goes out of their way to defend Coulter's hateful mocking of Muslims but then turn around and demand QuAIA be censored not for mocking Jews, which they don't do, but for merely criticizing Israeli policies. And all, apparently, because it makes some uncomfortable? How does that make any sense? I could see if QuAIA used hate speech that they should be banned but they don't. If Pride has to be comfortable for everyone its doomed. If a queer group gets banned because some disagree with them and find their message uncomfortable then Pride will definitely be on a downward slope and lose a sense of legitimacy among many in the LGBT community for allowing censorship. The concept of free speech has helped LGBT folk a lot over the years, we attack it at our own peril in my opinion. Much better to lose the funding but still hold our heads high. I think it'd be easier to replace the funding than to regain credibility when it comes to community values. If QuAIA resorted to hate speech then I'd fully support banning them but I just don't see that happening. The funny thing if there wasn't such an effort to censor them then I'm sure most of us wouldn't have remembered QuAIA from the parade last year let alone read/hear their message, I know I wouldn't have at least, actually I still don't remember them in the parade but I've seen video of them marching. Hearing about the attempts to ban them made me interested in seeing how bad they were for myself but I couldn't find any reason to support banning them at all. By trying to censor them they've done more for QuAIA than they could ever have done for themselves, become a household name. I'm sure traffic on their website is way up too. In a way it won't matter that much to QuAIA if they do get banned since that will only drive up interest in them some more.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/29/10 4:50 PM EST
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Ann Coulter really??
I remember Ann Coulter was force to cancel Rich because the University of Ottawa gave into another loons that did not want free speech either(from the left) funny isn't it and I think withdrawing Pride funding is too extreme because of one group who does not represent the community as a whole but if this is a freedom of expression by the Ann Coulter example its maybe a good lesson that it does go both ways(left or right) and its really funny when a Jewish Group such as of Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center for Holocaust Studies commended cutting Pride funding , If I remember the QuAIA attack and blamed the Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center on this freedom of expression issue but they came to our defense on this issue very interesting. (http://www.xtra.ca/public/National/Jewish_group_pushes_Pride_Toronto_to_condemn_antiIsrael_hate_groups-8385.aspx)
Peter, Toronto ON
04/29/10 5:42 PM EST
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xtra needs a little unbiased journalism
Wow. Reading some of the featured articles is hard. I'd like some news concerning the LGBTTIQQ2SA community in my city, and yet I get smacked in the face with this unbelievably biased article. Can I make a facebook page and be quoted? If I have a page that says "I bet this banana can get more fans than QuAIA" do I get into an article on xtra? Maybe make my own "news" website with an article heading such as "Does xtra.ca suck hard? Please god, don't suck so hard xtra.ca". Yea, I think so. It would be as credible as THIS garbage.
Bob, Toronto ON
04/29/10 6:06 PM EST
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What is this... NOW Magazine?
Even though you work for a paper that gets published regardless of the content, doesn't mean you need to ignore journalistic integrity. How about a facebook group that petitions your publisher?
Bob, Toronto ON
04/29/10 6:12 PM EST
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where the bias?
Bob, I'd be interested in knowing in what ways do you see this story being biased? It seems fairly balanced to me, it had Mammoliti's side of it and QuAIA's side too. Should they have covered someone else's point of view too? If so who? Or do see a problem with having QuAIA give their point of view? btw you hardly got "smacked in the face" with the article, it didn't stand out that much at all and you could have easily not read it if you didn't want to, or did you even read it? If you don't like xtra.ca why do you read it?
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/29/10 6:26 PM EST
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Re: Rich
Rich, I wouldn't really have a problem if the links to articles favorable to 'a position' weren't in a different size font. Why is that? I also would like to hear from someone in an article with actual credentials, rather than some nobody who starts a facebook group, to comment on a relevant issue within my community. I would love it if there were other sources covering the goings-on in the LGBTTIQQ2SA community other than xtra.ca/xtra, but we don't have many other serious sources. This (xtra) has turned out to be a real disappointment time and time again :( . I understand that in this day and age it's hard to run a print edition of anything, but all I ask is that those who have the keys to the kingdom is that they report on new happenings in a fair and balanced way. What happened to Block-o-rama? What happened to Cyndi Lauper on The Apprentice? If xtra isn't biased, why do they keep fixating this?
Bob, Toronto ON
04/29/10 6:41 PM EST
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Nice send off...
The frequently used word in this debate sets Telfer off on a rant. “Talk about hijacking!” he says. “It’s not that Queers Against Israeli Apartheid is hijacking the parade. One could easily use the same word to describe the level of corporate influence over the parade — not to mention the number of straight pundits and politicians trying to define for our community what Pride is about.”
Bob, Toronto ON
04/29/10 6:49 PM EST
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its significant news
Bob I don't think xtra.ca is so much fixated as simply reporting significant news for the Toronto community. The fact that some councilors and the city are threatening to remove funding from Pride if they don't ban QuAIA is news whether you like hearing about it or not. I gather the guy who created the Facebook group was interviewed as a representative of those opposed to censorship but not a member of QuAIA. Xtra definitely has an editorial policy in favour of free speech and against censorship as shown by these unmoderated comment sections and past editorial stances concerning different issues including the problems with Canada Border Services banning gay films, both porn and PG13 stuff and targeting gay and lesbian bookstores. Free speech has long been an issue in its various incarnations, this is just the latest battle except there are some within the LGBT community trying to get funding removed from Pride over this issue too, its not just the wider society any more though judging from the comments in a recent Toronto Sun article about the issue it was clear there was still a large number of folks who thought Pride should get no funding because queers are "disgusting", QuAIA wasn't an issue for those folks at all, if anything it was just one more item on a very long list of theirs why Pride should at the least get no money and preferably would be canceled completely. Granted it would be nice if there was more news covered more often, on that I agree with you.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/29/10 7:58 PM EST
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Freedom of expression includes political speech
SUPREME COURT OF CANADA, 2004: "Political speech [...] is the single most important and protected type of expression. It lies at the core of the guarantee of free expression [...]. The right of the people to discuss and debate ideas forms the very foundation of democracy [...]. For this reason, the Supreme Court of Canada has assiduously protected the right of each citizen to participate in political debate."
Rick, London Ontario
04/29/10 8:25 PM EST
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@Rick
Really Rick? in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms its states clear under Equality Rights that (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability. when your group attacks Israelis or Jews and Rick I've seen in other stories related to this that Rick from London Ontario blames Orthodox Jews, Jewish Groups and targets a country and its citizens which under the Charter applies and so does the Canadian Human Rights Act under Discriminatory Practices under section 3. the prohibited grounds of discrimination are race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, age, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, family status, disability and conviction for which a pardon has been granted and the t.(http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/H-6/page-2.html#anchorbo-ga:l_I-gb:s_5) but Freedom of Expression ends at discrimination and usually the people are discriminating in some form or another use the same card but since the QuAIA target seems to be a country the national origin part applies here and this is discrimination even if the QuAIA seems to think to be somehow above these laws and it applies to all Gay Straight, Black or White and even if you like it or not.
Peter, Toronto ON
04/29/10 8:50 PM EST
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How to address violations of the law
Peter: First of all, the Charter is supreme; it is part of the Canadian Constitution. Second, the Canadian Human Rights Act deals with "discriminatory practices" NOT political speech; for a full list, see: http://tinyurl.com/2bnwdon -- and, if you care to do so, cite the relevant sections that you think apply, including specific examples of QuAIA's alleged violations. Lastly, if you think QuAIA has engaged in any form of "hate," then there's an easy solution: CALL THE POLICE; for more information, see: http://tinyurl.com/27snw22 ... Oh, and LET ME KNOW HOW THAT WORKS OUT FOR YOU, Mr. Censorious.
Rick, London Ontario
04/29/10 8:57 PM EST
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@Rick
Well Rick the QuAIA did call for Israel to be destroyed but you will won't agree with this and you seem to blame Jews for some reason or another Rick again the Canadian Human Rights Act does define a Hate Crime Here {http://www.media-awareness.ca/english/resources/legislation/canadian_law/federal/human_rights_act/right_act_human_act.cfm} and note that the links brings you back to the Canadian Human Rights Act and Rick this is a Hate Crime and could follow under Section 318: Hate Propaganda and the Definition of "genocide" (2) In this section, "genocide" means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy in whole or in part any identifiable group, namely, under deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction. {http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/hatecrimes/} Rick it also states in Section 319 (1) Every one who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace is guilty and the QuAIA did call for violent overthrow of Israel at Pride last year unless you still want to say this is freedom of expression it still ends at discrimination also the The Anti-Terrorism Act is clear about this too , section 13 further: it extends the prohibition to hate propaganda communicated by means of a computer, or a group of interconnected or related computers — which includes the Internet, or any similar means of communication. Wow Both the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, The Canadian Human Rights Act and the Anti-Terrorism Act is Violated here and Rick the Police or the RCMP most likely have your hate group under their radar since all these acts are violated and they do the same to other Hate Groups too just another interesting part so I think the need to call the Police is not needed since they most likely are monitoring this hate group and the law is clear Gay or St
Peter, Toronto ON
04/29/10 9:35 PM EST
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Again, there's an easy solution
PETER: First of all, I am not a member of QuAIA. Second, and better yet, why don't you just provide the details of QuAIA's alleged crimes to the police? You can reach the Hate Crimes Unit of the Toronto Police at: 416-808-3500. Again, let me know how that works out for you, Peter!
Rick, London Ontario
04/29/10 9:44 PM EST
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@ Rick
Why Rick? the Canadian hate Crime Laws are clear and the City of Toronto see this and I bet like other groups they will not rat each other out but like other groups the Toronto Police and the RCMP most likely does have this group under their radar anyway so its really a waste of my time making that phone call. Personally I think its rather sad the the QuAIA destroyed a trust between the City and the Gay community which did take 40 years to build and the same could be said about the sponsors who even 20 years ago would not want anything to do with us because of who we are. A bigger crime has been committed here then violating the Laws of Canada. I really think this group has sent Gay Liberation back 40 years and Rick I really laughing when you say your not a member since you seem to be their unofficial spokesperson on everything they do.
Peter, Toronto ON
04/29/10 10:04 PM EST
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So, that settles it...
All these accusations of "hate" and "discrimination," etc. Blah, blah, blah. Yet no laws have been broken, arrests made, or charges laid. And none of the accusers are willing to just phone the police and report the alleged crimes. Yawn. The accusations, therefore, amount to one thing and on thing only: Propaganda -- with the sole intention of silencing legitimate criticism and debate, and tossing freedom of expression, including political speech, out the window. In short: censorship -- the hallmark of an authoritarian regime. Thank goodness we live in Canada!
Rick, London Ontario
04/30/10 1:02 AM EST
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OMG
Really Rick it sounds like you don't like opposition but you sound more like Propaganda then fact and Middle Eastern Wars has no place in Pride or in Canada but just keep on spreading the Hate you seem to be very blinded by it
Peter, Toronto ON
04/30/10 1:29 AM EST
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Typical bully @Peter
As it has been pointed out several times, it's clear that QuAIA's speech has NOT risen to a criminal level, or else charges would have been laid by now - any number of organizations (eg the Canadian Jewish Congress) would certainly have been at the fore if that were the case. It is not. Instead, we have one group bullying the state into censoring the opinions and speech of another group. That is, by definition, censorship. QuAIA is stating their opinions about Israel's domestic policies (which affects LGBT people too.. not all Palestinians are hetero) and marching in a parade that at its core is political. You may not like what they are saying, but calling it discrimination does not make it so. If you think it's hateful to highlight Israel's policies to a broader audience, well, um, tough? It is still protected speech under Canadian law. And this is speaking as a non--member of QuAIA and someone who doesn't agree with a lot of what they're saying either (I find there's lots of hyperbole from both camps)
Dan, Toronto ON
04/30/10 8:26 AM EST
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Um, Bob...
Bob, if you look at the article (the whole article, not just the bits that tie your panties into such a bunch), ALL the links to other stories and sits in the article body are larger than the body text. And bias? Um, you ARE aware that EVERY media organization has a bias, right? In case you haven't noticed, Xtra/PTP has traditionally been very supportive of Free Speech, even (especially!) when that speech is not popular. You might wanna look PTP's Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_Triangle_Press .. but I suspect you won't, as complaining is so much easier.
Dan, Toronto ON
04/30/10 8:41 AM EST
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even just one example please
Peter you claim that QuAIA has called for the destruction of Israel and the violent otherthrow of Israel. When did they do this? Where's the evidence? please provide even just one example of QuAIA calling for the destruction of Israel or for violence to be used against Israel let alone it being "overthrown". This is yet again another example of how the Israel lobby makes baesless claims about those they disagree with. QuAIA is not a hate group, has never used hate speech, has never called for the destruction of Israel or for violence to be used against Israel yet the Israel lobby has claimed they've done all those things and more. Its hard to take people seriously when they tell such lies with such regularity.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/30/10 12:33 PM EST
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@ Dan @ Rich what Lobby ?
Dan I'm no Bully you people don't like opposition and the Hate Crime laws do apply here there a hit the city cutting pride and they fact that you teabags broke Anti Discrimination laws at Pride out of all places where they could have been broke and Rich you little group did call for the violent overthrow of Israel you idiots were caught on video doing it and your group are in damage control since. Rich what F@$#king lobby are you talking about I don't care about the Middle East but bringing a Middle Eastern War in to Pride when it has nothing to do with gay rights at all just seems your want to bring their hate on both sides into the community and you are the ones that are censorship this issue like not liking opposition or the fact your group has nothing to do with gay rights whats next could I invite the KKK into pride and label it freedom of expression and freedom of speech. I really doubt xtra would even Support that move
Peter, Toronto ON
04/30/10 2:10 PM EST
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Peter = irrational
Peter, like a troll, keeps popping up on these comment sections spouting the same irrational, illogical, and unsubstantiated nonsense. It is utterly pointless to engage with him, apart from the comedic value of eliciting his insanity. QuAIA's purpose and positions are now very clear; it is a peace and human rights group, not a "hate" group. If it is a "hate" group, or if it has broken some laws, then CALL THE POLICE. Otherwise it is plainly obvious that the "hate" label is pure propaganda. As to Peter's question, "[W]hat F@$#king lobby...", the evidence is plentiful and indisputable. See, for example: (1) http://tinyurl.com/2ee7jlj & (2) http://tinyurl.com/25cccab & (3) http://tinyurl.com/2cwlemp
Rick, London Ontario
04/30/10 2:30 PM EST
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PS. On "damage control"
Oops. I forgot to respond to this tidbit of lunacy, although I'm sure my reply will be in vain. Peter wrote: "you little group did call for the violent overthrow of Israel you idiots were caught on video doing it". Of course, here again is an accusation without any evidence. Martin Gladstone's "video," for example, is so muffled and crappy that no reasonable conclusion could be drawn from it. Furthermore, QuAIA has already disputed Gladstone's (deliberately erroneous?) interpretation. See: http://tinyurl.com/25rl7cm
Rick, London Ontario
04/30/10 2:37 PM EST
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@Rick and Rich sound like Ann Coulter
Rick and Rich your the Troll in all of this since your group is rather undemocratic when you try to silence people who oppose you and calling people names is a common tactic of you teabags this is kind of like Rich Ann Coulter example you people silence people you don't agree with but when someone does the same to you teabags you scream violation freedom of Speech and and expression personally even as Gay man I have no problem with Ann Coulter expressing her views it but when the leftest group made the University of Ottawa cancel it it violated the same freedom of Speech and Expression that you teabags always scream time and time again when you violate Anti Discrimination Laws it wonders why the QuAIA is going to be the spoilers of the Party and Rick also I really feel sorry for you when you can't see the hate that your group spews up kind of reminds me of Ann Coulter but at least the same teabags are getting a taste of their own medicine on this one and it seems you really don't like it at all. If you don't like it I think the people who wanted to see Ann Coulter felt the same but at least they were rather civil about.
Peter, Toronto ON
04/30/10 3:07 PM EST
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hmm
Peter, Since you are so sure that QaIA are breaking a law, shouldn't there be due process? I want to see it. And, as a gay man, why are you attacking Pride for not censoring a group, isn't that the indirect way of going about it. If they have broken the law, have them arrested... or fined. What you are is either a stubborn person with little reasoning capacity or someone deliverately lying to us to further your agenda. Stop messing with Pride...take it on yourself to have someone press charges, and if that is not possible... well, I guess that means you have no case.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
04/30/10 5:43 PM EST
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@ Tam
How does a Middle Eastern War have anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada? or even Pride to that matter? or spreading a war to this country? and thinking that a Middle Eastern War that's been happening between Europe and the Islamic World for nearly 1000 years has anything to do with Gay Rights? and this is on the border line of Canada's hate crime laws even if you can't see it or not. Most people who do hate can't see it for themselves and hate isn't just a Straight Matter. People can hold prejudices no matter what the Sexual Orientation is but on the Question of Censorship these groups don't mind silencing people they don't agree with and I think Ann Coulter is a good example this and but the people who silence her always cry violation of freedom of speech and expression when they don't get such as in this case but at least in this case they are get a taste of their own medicine.
Peter, Toronto ON
04/30/10 6:07 PM EST
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Peter just give an example
Sorry Peter I really don't see how QuAIA is a hate group or used/uses hate speech, if they did I'd be all for banning them. You'll have to provide an example of them using hate speech or provide some evidence they're a hate group. You provide the evidence and I will gladly join you in trying to get them banned. I'm not actually a member of QuAIA, I have very little interest in the issue personally, but what does make me very upset is people trying to silence a group of queers just because they don't agree with them, censorship has no place in our society and especially at the Pride march. Btw its been shown repeatedly that the chant Gladstone interpreted to be "fist by fist, blow by blow" was actually "brick by brick, wall by wall" regardless even if they had been chanting what Gladstone claims they were that's hardly encouraging the violent overthrow of Israel or its destruction. Peter you are part of the Israel lobby, its made up of folks like yourself and Gladstone who cannot accept any criticism of Israeli policies and who take actions to censor those who do criticize their policies. The funny thing is there is much criticism of Israel within Israel and the term apartheid is used on a regular basis to describe the situtation there by Israelis of all political stripes. As someone else already pointed out if it were Queers Against English Apartheid no one would care because its silly because there's nothing even close to apartheid in England, but when it comes to Israel then its Israel right or wrong defenders go into full attack mode because it does resemble the situation in Israel. No one is being discriminated against btw, its just criticism of a state's policies, and it wouldn't be a big deal if there wasn't a smear campaign against QuAIA in the efforts to censor them.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/30/10 6:32 PM EST
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@Rich What Lobby? or what Planet do you live on?
because you have opposition you can't say that I'm a member of a lobby group or anyone to that matter and Rich Apartheid is South African not Israeli and it means {a former policy of segregation and political and economic discrimination against non-European groups in the Republic of South Africa} here is the English Definition of the Word {http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apartheid} and Israel does not have Racial Segregation no country has Racial Segregation and Rich So what if Israel has a wall it has keep a lot of suicide bombers from targeting Civilians Jews or Arabs they really don't care who or on its borders I do believe the United States has a wall with Mexico and Spain has them long there border with African Countries but I think they have them for a reason. But its rather funny that you teabags are supporting Islamic Terrorism and think that has something to do with Gay Rights or Pride is beyond reason
Peter, Toronto ON
04/30/10 7:03 PM EST
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re: Peter
Peter your comment "you are the ones that are censorship this issue like not liking opposition" is ridiculous. Challenging lies told by folks like yourself is not censorship, pointing out the truth of the matter is not censorship, standing up for free expression is not censorship. What is censorship is banning a queer group from the Pride march because some disagree with their message. Those protesting Coulter had as much right to be heard as did Coulter, its unfortunate that more demonstrators showed up than could be handled but that isn't their fault and Coulter really does come close to using hate speech, much much closer than QuAIA ever has yet there's been no campaign to silence her like there has been to silence QuAIA, can you say double standard? It seems to be acceptable to useful nasty hateful speech when attacking Muslims but criticize the policies of a foreign gov't and you'll be labeled a hate group. So Peter you support free speech for Coulter but not for QuAIA. Why is that? The Pride march is the perfect place for them to have their say, they're a queer group fighting for justice for all in Israel and the occupied territories, there have been and still are plenty of queer groups supporting causes that aren't strictly LGBT focused and there's no effort to censor them, just QuAIA so its false to claim that your opposition is to them not supporting a strictly LGBT cause otherwise you would have been opposed to all those other groups as well. Also if me, QuAIA or the others defending them were truly hateful bigots as you claim then surely there would be evidence of that by now in all the writing we've been doing on this issue. Yes passions have run high on both sides of the issue but sometimes the reason hatred can't be seen is because it isn't there, mind you I, and others, do hate the ongoing attempts to smear and silence QuAIA and to deny Pride funding but that's not bigotry. I'm sure you hate folks standing up for the truth regarding QuAIA to
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/30/10 7:27 PM EST
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lobby is as lobby does
Peter if you lobby to have something done then you are a lobbyist, why do you reject the term? its value neutral and doesn't imply anything other than trying to get others to do what you'd like them to do, usually gov'ts, in this case city hall, but can be any organization that's being lobbied like Pride Inc. Your comment "Israel does not have Racial Segregation" totally ignores the reality of the occupied territories where there are Jewish only roads and Jewish only settlements on Palestinian land. Besides which debating the rights and wrongs of Israel policies is not the issue here, the issue at hand is the attempt to censor a queer group because some disagree with them. It doesn't matter if Israel is the most just country on the face of the planet, criticism of them should still be allowed regardless. I'm still waiting for some examples from you concerning QuAIA's use of hate speech or other evidence they are actually a hate group, or a truthful example of them calling for Israel to be violently overthrown or otherwise attacking their right to exist, as was already mentioned Gladstone's claim about the chant in the video is false, considering what I have seen of that video I wouldn't be surprised if he intentionally "misheard" the chant in an effort to get some dirt on QuAIA where none existed. I can imagine the trouble he had being opposed to the group and trying to find something in the raw video that would make others oppose them as well. He did have to resort to showing video of protests in other cities that had absolutely nothing to do with QuAIA. In my mind that alone shows how much trouble he had trying to find evidence that QuAIA used hate speech or was a hate group. If he couldn't do it I don't actually expect you to do it Peter but give it a go, I'll be interested in what you propose as evidence.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/30/10 7:52 PM EST
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how exactly?
Peter how exactly does QuAIA, myself and the others defending QuAIA support Islamic terrorism? I'm curious to know.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/30/10 7:57 PM EST
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@ Rich think before you scream Witch
This is a double standard? I believe your Ann Coulter Example is a good one to say the least and what she says does fit in to Freedom of Speech and Expression but a some loons did force the University of Ottawa to cancel her speech because someone does not like her views and I personally don't but I think she does have the right to say it. Also it still does not give you the right to label someone as a lobbyist when they disagree with you teabags, it kind of sound like the Salem, Massachusetts in the 1690s and people screaming Witch and it did not turn out good for anyone. Rich personally I also feel very sorry to the Palestinians and it a crime what is happening to them and it does really break my heart that people in North America or anywhere use their suffering to front their own political agenda as many in the Islamic World do and they could careless about them in reality but they don't mind using them to front as a cover. Hamas does that since they can give out $1000 a night hotel rooms in Dubai but can't spend a cent on people in Gaza and the QuAIA seems to be doing the same using Palestinian suffering and thinking it has anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada which it does not but it seem to be a cover in trying to justify attacks against Jewish Members of the Gay community and Groups it's odd that it was a Jewish Group that the QuAIA did blame for this mess did come to our defense this might tell you something to say the least. Rich this is a double standard and I know that you can't see this but you are also trying to put censorship on this issue when you try to silence people who oppose you and your group it works both ways and its not a one way street if it was this makes this really undemocratic but your rather blind to that I can clear see that
Peter, Toronto ON
04/30/10 8:08 PM EST
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@ Rich
Do you know the difference between a race and a religion? and tell me about the Muslim only roads and cities in Saudi Arabia and also they ban Jews from entering the country(not segregation or Apartheid? ) or the Zero Gay rights in Muslim Nations then if you still think that I'm a lobbyist but its clear your a lobbyist then but I'm not going to scream witch because I you are only saying that because your facing opposition and you can't stand it. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wcDKFbII7uI/SRvIIKQd_iI/AAAAAAAAAGQ/w0yf-Om9hVk/s1600-h/hway-2-mecca-muslims-only.jpg
Peter, Toronto ON
04/30/10 8:35 PM EST
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many are Jewish
Peter many of the members of QuAIA are Jewish themselves, how exactly has QuAIA attacked Jewish members of the gay community as you claim? They haven't said or done anything to attack anyone, no Israeli policy isn't a person. How am I trying to silence you? By asking for evidence of your claims? that's hardly silencing or censorship, yet it is censorship to demand that QuAIA be banned from the Pride march, the two things are in no way similar. Is it censorship because I challenge your lies and distortions about QuAIA? Do you think free speech means never being challenged regardless of what you say? That would be ridiculous. I'm sorry you take lobbyist to be an insult, I can't imagine why you would but it might explain why you see QuAIA as a hate group despite reality. So are you saying that ethnic and religious segregation is okay so long as it it isn't about skin colour? I would hope Israel aspires to be better than Saudi Arabia, I know myself and I imagine QuAIA too expect much more from a modern democracy than from a monarchy. Peter I tire of this, either come up with some examples proving your point that QuAIA is a hate group that needs to be banned or come up with some new argument, perhaps you should spend some time learning some of the basic concepts discussed here like censorship for example. Your claim that I am censoring you makes it clear you have no idea what you're talking about, besides its rather pointless debunking your lies and distortions since anyone of average intelligence reading them will clearly see them for what they are without any help from me.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/30/10 9:49 PM EST
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Censorship is Rich's favorite card
We all say that we have Jewish Friends that card is getting rather old this is like saying that Hamas or the PLO has openly Gay members or even cares about Gay Rights and Rich you don't like opposition you seem to clear on that and personal insults is just another card you people use and yes Rich most people who do hold prejudices are rather blinded from seeing it themselves and it does tell a lot like how a Middle Eastern War has anything to do with Gay Rights or how is the QuAIA even a Gay Rights Group since it seems to have little with Gay Rights in Canada but wants to spread a Middle Eastern War into our community and Rich seem to the one who is lobbying it.
Peter, Toronto ON
04/30/10 10:19 PM EST
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Thank you Peter...
I really appreciate you. Thank you for being a voice in the community that chooses to speak. I admire your courage immensely.
Bob, Toronto ON
05/01/10 12:17 AM EST
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just answer the questions
Peter just answer the questions I asked, why is it free speech is good for Coulter but not for QuAIA? where's the evidence that QuAIA is a hate group or uses hate speech. It is true that many members of QuAIA are themselves Jewish, their connection to the situation in Israel is probably why they got involved in such a group in the first place though that's just a guess since I don't know them personally. I seriously doubt the PLO has openly gay members but whatever, it has nothing to do with the issue at hand does it. Talk about personal insults! you've been dishing them out plenty calling me and others who support free speech supporters of Islamic terrorism and bigots and hate mongers and the list goes on. All of your arguments against QuAIA are based on personal insults and nothing more. Btw it isn't a war, its an occupation going on in Israel and Bob exactly how much courage does it take to comment on an anonymous comment board such as this? Oh yeah Peter check out the QuAIA website for more info on why they've formed such a group, it'll answer your questions about their relevance to the gay community in Toronto. Its pretty obvious you've never checked out their website yet since you keep asking questions they cover, myself I'm only here to defend their right to free speech and to participate in the Pride march. Btw you are correct in that I am here to argue against opposition to free speech so yes I am a proud free speech lobbyist, hate is a strong word but I can safely say I hate censorship. Free speech doesn't imply their won't be opposition to it like you seem to think, my opposition to your efforts and the efforts of the rest of the Israel lobby to censor this queer group in no way means you're being censored or being denied free speech, if xtra.ca started deleting comments from pro-censorship folks like yourself then that would be censorship but they don't do that do they, you are still free to continue name calling just as I am to argue against you.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/01/10 4:11 PM EST
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How wrong Peter is
Peter, Coulter was not censored by the University of Ottawa. Could you please tell us where she was censored? She merely received a letter from an officila at UofO in which she was told that she should be careful about what she said because of hate speech laws. Now, let me say this slowly, because somehow you are conveniently uncapable of processing this type of information. (1) There is no discussion that hate speech law is important to protect minorities. (2) The University of Ottawa did not cancel her speech, she was warned that she might break hate speech laws in canada and she acted like an irrational moron. Maybe you feel some affinity here. (3)Hate speech goes both way. Unfortunately, it isn't applied when Pro-Israel groups claim that everyone in the occupied terrorists grows up to be a terrorist, that islam is a religion of hatred, etc. (4) The question is not whether there should be or there shouldn't be hate speech, but whether it is hateful to criticize a nation for its actions. The law would say no, and if I am wrong, I fully expect that people like you would like to have QaIA prosecuted. I am against hate speech Peter, if you think you have a case, by all means, do it. If not, do us the favour of remaining quiet. If you are right.. and it sounds like you rarely are, then stop annoying us here... go right ahead to the police and the police and the courts. What is the use of talking to us? You are right? Right? Go to the police... you don't need to be here arguying with us. Or... is it that the police is going to say... hmmm ... no... then you can go to the courts... but why isn't one pro-Israel lawyer picking this up? If it has merit.. I mean. We can say down with American imperialism, we can say down with Israeli Apartheid... and that is that. You and Bob can cry all you want... you are trying to cover the sun with a finger... this thing is going to make it to the mainstream... just watch. Solution... Israel changes its ways.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/01/10 7:34 PM EST
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Wow zezi,
but anyone can't seem to answer how a Middle Eastern War have anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada? and Zezi you people are on the border line when it comes to hate speech in this country kind of like Ann Coulter and you people just don't like opposition kind of like Ann Coulter
Peter, Toronto ON
05/01/10 9:42 PM EST
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So you know Peter
I don't know where you are from Peter, but either you are not from here or you have been too busy to realize that Pride has ALWAYS included groups fighting for human rights around the world. So, whether it has something to do with Gay rights or not, it is IRRELEVANT, as it is part of what Pride has alwasy been. What part of that don't you get? Where were you when the groups against poverty marched with us? Those against the war in Darfur? Those have all marched withus. In addition. (1) These people are queer, Pride is a queer event; (2) Israel has used homosexual rights to portray itself as a progressive country, which it cannot be until it dismantles the Jewish National Fund (which discriminates against religion, something that no landlord in Canada would be allowed to do), it recognizes non-jewish villages within its borders, it is equally likely to provide permits for construction regardless of religion; it recognizes marriage rights for everyone, or stops recognizing marriages altogether; it returns to its 1967 borders... think of it this way, Israel brought us into its mess...I could go on about inequality and legalized discrimination in Israel... The thing is peter, you can throw yourself to the floor, scream at everyone, but if Israel wants to stop others from calling it an apartheid state, there is one easy way to do it, stop being an apartheid state. There is nothing fringe about what I am saying, it is like saying that being against Darfur is being fringe. You might be surrounded by people who think like you, but the vast majority of people, faced with the evidence, would not feel the way you do. A few people want to bring that evidence to people without having to show them what Israel did to Gazan children with its high tech bombs, so that we can spare each other having to go through that horror. Israel must take responsibility. It is an all grown up country now...
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/01/10 9:59 PM EST
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What is hateful?
Three of 4 federal parties have condemned the linking of the word "apartheid" with Israel. The Ontario legislature was unanimous in making the same condemnation. Prominent city officials, including David Miller, Kyle Rae, and George Smitherman have stated that the anti apartheid groups don't belong in the parade; others say the groups create a 'poisoned' environment. The standard of what is hateful must be measured here in Canada. It doesn't matter if the word is used in Israel. Here in Canada, people understand the word apartheid as it was defined by South Africa. An across the board system of discrimination based on race. In Israel, an arab sits on the Supreme Court! Totally unthinkable in SA during apartheid. So, when you call Israel an apartheid state, and most people here know what true apartheid looks like, it's totally untrue and hateful to suggest Israel is apartheid.
Peter, Hamilton ON
05/01/10 10:56 PM EST
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if they had done that on their own
Hi Peter, The thing is, when you scream and scream until people listen to you, as the pro-Israel group has done... then you can't say that the four federal parties have condemned the use of Israeli Apartheid and take it seriously. It is like using the pressure put on Pride Toronto by the pro-Israel group to imply that Pride Toronto believed that apartheid is not the correct word to use. You can't pester and pester our politicians and when they "condemn" something say they did it out of their free will. It is like saying that McQuinty stopped his plan for sex-ed because he didn't believe in it, and not because he was pressured to reverse it. Do you get my drift? The other thing is that I don't really care what our politicians think. There was a time when they all thought homosexuality was wrong. They can condemn all they want and they can refrain themselves from using the word all they want. WHAT THEY DIDN'T DO SAYS MORE. They did not pass a law that said that it was hate speech, because they can't, or forbid people from using it, because they can't. Or contacted police and had them arrested or fined, because it is perfectly legal. A condmenation is a "we don't like it" and we can all see how pushy the pro-Israel group can be, how they won't stop at anything... they are, after all, willing to bring down Pride Toronto unless they get their way. So, you have provided no proof of hate speech. Sorry... you failed, again. They can condemn all they want, it is simply their opinion, which in many cases (yes, I don't think politicians have much of a back bone) was the result of pressure on them. So it means even less.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/01/10 11:16 PM EST
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zezi and Rick
Words can be hateful without breaching Canada's very strict hate laws. Take for example, a sign on the TTC which asks, Does god love gays? Rick, you say there must be limits on free speech. Should this ad be displayed anywhere and everywhere? Why not? Millions of people believe the truth that god hates the homosexual act, and they have it on good authority, their bible.
Peter, Hamilton ON
05/02/10 7:01 AM EST
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Rick
Rick, you seem very sincere in wanting to learn why QuAIA messaging is hateful. You spend countless hours defending their rights. How about a short trip to the Holocaust education centre? You can have a chat with the director, and have all your questions answered.
Peter, Hamilton ON
05/02/10 7:17 AM EST
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hate laws
Hi Peter, Finally we can agree that no hate laws have been broken. Great. Now, I don't see how using a word that means Israel legally discriminates against non-jewish people is hateful. There are lots of hateful words out there, apartheid isn't one. Israel is a country, it is therefore not protected as a group. Israelis as a whole are, so they are protected as a group, the same way gays are. I realize that pointing out the nature of Israel's policies can have negative consequences, people don't like the americans very much because of what they have done in the pas alsot, not because it is hate speech, but because people tend to not like countries who practice apartheid and because there are a lot of anti-semites out there who will equate this to Jewish people. This is partly because Israel is an apartheid state and equates itself with its Jewish majority. The Pro-Israel group and Israel too, have done Jewish people a disservice by claiming that Israel represents them, whent as QaIA shows, it doesn't represent many of them. The consequences you are worried about are understandable, but does that mean that we cannot have a movement to end discrimination in Israel? To end the ocupation? To make sure no more Gaza's and Lebanon's happen? I don't think anyone should be stopped from criticizing a state who behaves like Israel. 3,000 prominent jewish people just signed a letter asking Europe to stop giving unconditional support to Israel. Obviously within the Jewish community there are huge clusters of people who are fed up. Outside of the commuity also. I am fed up. And frankly, QaIA is making sure not to equate Israel with Jewish people or Israeli citizens as whole. I don't understand what you want to happen? Nothing? Remember, horrible things happen when people do nothing. I am hopeful, things are changing with respect to Israel... maybe there is going to peace... I am hopeful.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/02/10 8:56 AM EST
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let them march and be done with it already
I can't believe this debate still rages with n0 new ideas or arguments..Just let a few people march with their placards and be done with it--the world won't be altered and their will be no violation of the law--just an expression of a point of view re one country (As often is the case in the march/parade over 39 years...on one country or other...the myth that "gay pride" is just about celebrating being LGBT is simplistic--it is also about protesting whatever LGBT want to protest with signs--long tradition of this. The more attention you give to QUAIA --ironically by those against their participating--the more important they seem to be--and I must say their message is certainly out there loud and clear long before the march. (And as I have said before many of them are prominent longtime LGBT activists and personalities who shld be allowed to have a voice..)in our annual celebration/march. And Pride T has ruled it is OK now so I don't see the big deal here.
james dubro, toronto ontario
05/02/10 10:23 AM EST
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Zezi Apartheid=Minority rule not
Zezi I can't believe you finally said this but you said {This is partly because Israel is an apartheid state and equates itself with its Jewish majority} If Israel was a Apartheid State then you have just proven how its not. Apartheid in South Africa as anyone who study it is a Withe Minority ruled over a Black Majority and enforce racial segregation policy that separated Whites and Blacks kind of like the Jim Crow laws in the United States after the American Civil War to the 1960s. On top of that Withe Minority ruled ruled over the Black Majority and the Majority had ZERO rights of the and could not even be in the Government for example. In Israel 80% of the Population is Jewish and about 20% is Arabs or mostly Arab unlike South Africa, Arabs enjoy equal rights and are in all levels of the Israel government. But if this is a question over discrimination that takes place in Israel then the Apartheid card can not be applied here. Discrimination among minorities in Canada for example is a problem here in Canada and we are not perfect either and Xtra does document how Homophobia is still a big problem. Antisemitism and racism in general is still a big problem in Canada. Also near 80% of Canada does have European Background but is a country that has problems with discrimination then is Canada Apartheid State? Israel might have problems with discrimination but this is a problem that all countries have and they fight it including Israel just ask all the Arab and Gay members of the Knesset then or members of the Supreme Court.Sorry discrimination exists everywhere including in Pride thanks to your group of lairs. Discrimination happens here in Toronto and all over Canada but I see no one labeling Canada as Apartheid because of it. Also you might want to look up what Apartheid really was since you seem not to have a clue what it is and thanks Zezi you shown how this is not a Gay Right Group and please keep discrimination out of Pride it has no place in Pride AT ALL Thanks
The other Peter, Toronto ON
05/02/10 1:49 PM EST
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Zezi or the other Liars here
FYI: I'm not defending anyone it does break my heart on what the Palestinians had to put up with or I'm not the Israel Lobby as Rich uses since he faces opposition and this is kind of like labeling someone a Witch in Salem Massachusetts in the 1690s and that turn out great for everyone and the people who did that only did it because they had opposition. I think it just rather inhuman that you people can use their suffering of Palestinians to advance your political agenda that in this case has little to do with Gay Rights . This it what the Palestinian Leadership does and they could care less about them in general such as Hamas and $1000 a night hotel rooms in Dubai and can't spend that amount on anyone in Gaza. Sorry If you people really think that fundamentalist Islam is Gay Friendly then something wrong with you they could careless about Gay Rights at least Israel allows us to be we are and won't kill us for it and Can some one please answer HOW DOES A MIDDLE EASTERN WAR HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH GAY RIGHTS IN CANADA? and that is the message of Pride in Canada and why we have them. The only answers that I'm getting are the teabags who have a political agenda that has nothing to do with Gay Rights in Canada but trying to use it to advance their own agenda's even when it's a bunch of lies.
The other Peter, Toronto ON
05/02/10 2:36 PM EST
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a lesson in logic for Peter
The spirit of the word "Apartheid" is racial segregation and legalized discrimination which in the case of Israel would be cultural/religious segration. Whether it is a minority or a majority that does it, is irrelevant. Israel is an apartheid state because (1) within its borders it doesnt' have equal rights for non jewish people. (2) It doesn't want its non-jewish indigenous population to live in Israel proper and it seeks to displace them from what is left of historical palestine through jewish settlements. (3) Israel proper has a jewish majority. Israel proper defines itself as a jewish state, to the exclusion of a more pluralistic society that includes the muslims, christians, bedouins, etc, who live within their borders. The state of Israel and the pro-Israel groups have equated Israel to being jewish, without asking all jewish people. It is simplistic and only racists would make the claim that the actions of Israel reflect on Jews around the world. It doesn't. 3,000 European Jews have said they want Europe to stop endorsing Israel no matter what. This includes previous supporters. In the US a number of Jewish organizations have sprang up to say "not in my name". Where Israel has, in the most racist of ways, tried to portray the palestinians and muslims in general as irrational people who they could never had peace with, Jason Alexander created One Voice which showed how much can be done among both people. Israel lies anyways... it cannot be that it is impossible to have peace with Muslims when the two peace agreements it has wiht muslim countries have actually held. Israel is the biggest obstacle for peace right now... it is about time it starts trying harder. And you can scream all you want Peter, QaIA will march, and the movement against Israel's actions will grow... and hopefully that will make Israel more willing to negotiate peace. That is all I have to say.. you can scream at your computer all you want... this is going
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/02/10 2:50 PM EST
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3,00o European Jews are Fed up
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1166737.html A new leftist European Jewish group, JCall, has written a letter to be delivered Sunday to the European Parliament calling for a cessation of what it calls systematic support for Israeli government decisions. JCall, which describes itself as "the European J Street" and is to be officially launched Sunday with the presentation of the letter, has raised a storm with its call to stop construction in West Bank settlements and East Jerusalem. The letter is signed by some 3,000 Jewish intellectuals, among them philosophers Bernard Henri-Levy and Alain Finkielkraut, considered some of Israel's strongest defenders among French intellectuals. Signatories also include Daniel Cohn-Bendit, leader of the student protests in the 1960s and now a member of the European Parliament, as well as other Jewish members of the European Parliament. Advertisement The letter calls occupation and settlements "morally and politically wrong," noting that they "feed the unacceptable delegitimization process that Israel currently faces abroad."
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/02/10 2:59 PM EST
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Zezi then these Jews care more about Israel
these Jews care more about Israel then you think if this is the European J Street then here is how J Street describes itself {is the political home for pro-Israel, pro-peace Americans.}more about them here: {http://www.jstreet.org/about/about-us} Thanks Zezi for showing how these 3000 European Jews Care about Israel then because they really do as with most Jews if they are the European J Street Lobby but this still has nothing to do with Gay Rights in Canada and shows your lack of knowledge about J Street for example and I would support them becasue he do care about Israel not finding ways to destroy it or they don't label it Apartheid either.
The other Peter, Toronto ON
05/02/10 3:10 PM EST
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I do know already
Peter I do know about the Holocaust already, probably more about it and how it came to be than most average people since I studied it and other genocides and crimes against humanity at the university level. I know full well the conditions commonly necessary for a genocide to occur and there are more risk factors for Israel to become a perpetrator of genocide/crimes against humanity than for it to be a victim of genocide/crimes against humanity. That's not to say Israel is likely to ethnically cleanse the occupied territories or anything like that, just that some of the conditions necessary for that sort of thing to happen are in place in Israel while there is no realistic threat of it or its citizens becoming the victims of ethnic cleansing or other crimes against humanity. But again this is all pointless and off topic because the issue at hand is why shouldn't QuAIA be allowed to participate in the Pride march and you still haven't come up with any valid reason why they shouldn't, your argument that they're hateful has no basis otherwise you would have been able to come up with some examples of how they're hateful instead of just parroting the propaganda of Gladstone's video which has already been shown to be full of lies and distortions, he couldn't find anything damming QuAIA either that's why he had to make up new words for their chant and use video clips from other cities and other demonstrations that have nothing whatsoever to do with QuAIA. If you really don't want to see QuAIA in the march then just turn your head when they go by, they'll only be about 30 seconds or so as they march by and then that will be it and it'll be all over, problem solved.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/02/10 3:45 PM EST
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