Jewish groups and politicians react to cancelled ban
TORONTO NEWS / Mammoliti to try again to defund Pride Toronto
Scott Dagostino / Toronto / Friday, June 25, 2010
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A group of about 35 journalists, politicians and members of Toronto’s Jewish community gathered at the Miles Nadal Jewish Community Centre this morning in reaction against Pride Toronto’s (PT) June 23 decision not to censor the term Israeli apartheid from this year’s Pride celebration.

It was a press conference held by gay lawyer Martin Gladstone and “representatives of the organized Jewish community.” Seated with Gladstone at a long table were representatives from the Canadian Jewish Congress, the Canada-Israel Committee, the UJA Federation of Greater Toronto, Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center, and mayoral candidates Rocco Rossi, Giorgio Mammoliti and Rob Ford.

Gladstone said he will resume lobbying Pride’s corporate sponsors, warning them, “You can’t separate the message of a sponsor from what happens in the Pride Parade.”

From left: Bernie Farber of the CJC, Mark Freiman of the CJC, Avi Benlolo of the Friends of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, Martin Gladstone, Justine Apple of Kulanu, David Spiro of UJA federation, Moshe Ronen of the CIC, Rossi and Mammoliti.
(Matt Mills)




Mammoliti said he plans to introduce a new motion to city council in a bid to retroactively defund PT. Ford and Rossi said they support that move. But it was Rossi who delivered the strongest rhetoric, firmly denouncing Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QuAIA) as a hate group.

“I am appalled that one of Toronto’s finest summer festivals has been politicized by a fringe group of people spreading hate,” he said.

Toronto city councillors Georgio Mammoliti and Rob Ford sign a notice of motion to defund Pride Toronto for refusing to act as censor.
(Scott Dagostino)




Justine Apple of the queer Jewish group Kulanu told Xtra later that she isn’t opposed to policy discussions but that the QuAIA contingent in last year’s parade crossed a line. One marcher wore a T-shirt with a crossed-out Swastika on it.

“Their use of the swastika, whether crossed out or not, is absolutely unacceptable to me,” said Apple. “The minute any Jewish person – any informed person – sees that, you immediately want to leave that parade. It screams hate.”
Although Apple spoke against PT’s announcement, she still encourages members of Toronto’s Jewish community to march with her contingent in the Pride parade next Sunday.

“We want to galvanise as many people as possible to march with us and show our strength in numbers,” she says. “Kulanu promotes inclusivity, diversity, acceptance, tolerance. We feel those values have been removed from the Pride parade and we want to bring them back.”

Meanwhile Elle Flanders, a Jewish member of QuAIA, and a handful of other freedom of expression activists were denied entry to the building. They waited quietly on the sidewalk while the press conference was underway inside. Representatives from Jewish Voice for Peace, the United Jewish People’s Order distributed press material.

Kulanu executive director Justine Apple wants members of Toronto's Jewish Community to march with her contingent in Toronto's Pride Parade.
(Matt Mills)
“A growing number of Jews in Canada and around the world reject this attempt to avoid serious discussion of Israeli policies,” read one release.

“They won’t answer the question of how our arguments constitute hate speech,” Flanders told Xtra. “If this was hate speech, you’d have to fire half of the Israeli Knesset who talk about Israel apartheid every day… As someone who grew up in Israel, I value my democratic rights and when they sit in there and say you can’t have political speech, it undermines the very democracy they’re promoting in Israel. If you value it there, you have to value it here.”


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Reader Comments


 
Relevance
From my point of view, this isn't an issue of free speech. I have some sympathy with those who are critical of Israel, and as a Jew discussions of Israel are a source of some angst for me. However, I strongly feel that Pride is not the place to discuss Middle East politics. It is a day to celebrate queer culture and criticize regimes that suppress gay rights. Israel is manifestly not one of those regimes, and everything else about it is irrelevant to Pride. It's the last thing I want to be dealing with on Pride Day, and I fear that the whole atmosphere will be soured by it.
Shelley Albert, Toronto Ontario
06/25/10 3:43 PM EST
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Apartheid is a hateful word
Elle Flanders says: "They won’t answer the question of how our arguments constitute hate speech,” Yet having heard Bernie Farber speak a couple weeks ago he explained it very well in front of hundreds of people. "Apartheid", he explained, is a racist crime. It is an evil form of racial separation that only racists can support. Ergo, wrongly labeling Israel as apartheid infers that all who support the Jewish state are racists. Its pretty much a given fact that here in Toronto the overwhelming number of Jews (and many many non-Jews) support Israel. They are therefor racists according to QuAIA. Were I a Jew would I want to come to an event only to be mischievously and wrongly labeled a racist? Shame on Pride for giving into QuAIA. Shame on those who target the Jewish community with such venom.
Marise Cousineau, Toronto ON
06/25/10 4:06 PM EST
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Marise... you make little sense
If Apartheid is saying a country is racist, then calling a country racist would be hateful... and that can't be defended. Either there is a lack in the development of your logical abiliteis or some emotional problem is making it impossible for one braincell to connect with another... yes, it gets to this. Because if calling a country racist is hateful, then calling a country anti-semitic is hateful... and we know that there are many countries in history that have been anti-semitic and racist and at laest I, I don't know you, don't think it is hateful to acknowledge it nor do I think it reflects on all the population and anyone else associated with that country in one way or another. He explained it well, did he? It is like a massive destruction of whatever endowed intelligence people have. Yes, I don't think you are very smart if you can reach such conclusion because Faber explained it to you.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/25/10 4:36 PM EST
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I understood marise
Tam, I know you believe that trying to target a person in an ad-homonym attack may score points but in order to do so your attack should at least be logical. Marise explained why Apartheid label is so offensive and I understood her perfectly. I mean what's not to understand. Israel, a democracy that does not practice apartheid is falsely and maliciously labeled such. Any country today and anyone supporting a country that is racist is defacto a racist, pretty simple. That's why QuAIA chose such a poisoned yet simple analogy. I mean even gay-positive NOW gets it: http://www.nowtoronto.com/news/story.cfm?content=175200 So I would urge you Tam to dispense with personal attacks and read what Marise wrote. You may not like it, you very well I imagine disagree with it. But don't discount it by trying to be a bully.
Karen Briggs, Oakville ON
06/25/10 4:48 PM EST
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What would an expert on apartheid say?
"Israel, like South Africa, is an apartheid state." - South African Prime Minister Hendrik Verwoerd, a man often called "the architect of Apartheid" and someone who could reasonably be viewed as an authority on the subject...
Jay, Belleville Ontario
06/25/10 4:49 PM EST
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The basic facts about Pride & QuAIA
Let's always keep at the forefront of our minds the basic facts about Pride Toronto and Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QuAIA). The facts are simple and clear. The two primary requirements for participation in Pride are to be: (1.) part or supportive of the LGBT community; and, (2.) law-abiding. QuAIA [http://www.quaia.org] meets both of these requirements. Singling out one group that meets the requirements and then banning its lawful political speech is censorship [http://tinyurl.com/censordef2]. In Canada, freedom of expression -- including lawful political speech -- is constitutionally protected as a fundamental right. That right is a foundational pillar of any liberal democracy.
Rick, London Ontario
06/25/10 5:01 PM EST
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We agree somehow Karen
You said, "Any country today and anyone supporting a country that is racist is defacto a racist, pretty simple." It would depends on what part of that country you are supporting. If you are supporting the well being of poor people in the country, not racist, if you are supporting that 97% of the land is jewish only, racist. If you are claiming to support Israel's right to self-defense when it bombed uselessly and while no one was attacking it or wanted a war Gaza and Lebanon killing a combined total of about 3,000 people, most of whom were children, YES racist. If you are supporting a country's blindness to the abuses of settlers, then you are racist. If you are supporting a country's policy of preventing children's toys and shoes from reaching them and claim it is self-defense, then you are racist. Not all Israelis, not all Jewish people, support these policies. That means, I don't like you or anyone who supports these policies, but luckly, you aren't all of Israel nor are you all of Jewish people. And no, not all South Africans were racists, not all Spaniards were anti-semitic in 1492. It is a simple as that. And good thing because otherwise this would be a terrible place with people who faced with a moral problem always defend their own country or the country they identify ethnically with. That is the kind of mentality that leads to genocide. And yes, I don't think you are very smart either... it isn't just an attack, I don't think your position is defensible or logical by any standards.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/25/10 5:18 PM EST
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Elle Flanders is a clown
Makes sense Xtra would give her the last word, again. Elle Flanders and the QuAIA possey are not at all, in any way shape or form engaging in a serious discussion of Israeli policies. That's what they keep saying they are trying to do, but the reality is they are engaging in a PR war with those they have branded the enemies of free speech. Scoundrels all of them.
Ryan, Toronto ON
06/25/10 5:34 PM EST
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Thinking
As this debate started i was firmly on the side of Free Speech. As it got dirtier and dirtier I wavered. My wavering was not so much anti free-speech but more of gaining an understanding of the tricks being played to poison the enviroment. Thanks to whoever posted Ellie Kirzner's piece and to Bernie Farber's explanation offered by another poster. I get it. I understand why queer Jews and others would take strong exception to being seen as racists. I only wish QuAIA would be more true to their goal of being critical of Israel without poisoning the well. As long as they continue to misrepresent Jews I as a proud Queer stand today with the Jewish community in denouncing the hate.
Chris Stewart, Toronto ON
06/25/10 5:35 PM EST
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Chris
Good try, but they are actually not misrepresenting Jews since many of them are Jews which highlights the diversity of opinion in the Jewish community. It is a terrible thing that there is so much racism coming out of Israel and its blind supporters, but if you are racist, you can't complain that people are calling you racist. If you are racist and people call you racist, well... it is because you are racist.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/25/10 5:42 PM EST
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Elle Flanders
Elle Flanders is Jewish she has also significantly contributed to the queer community and culture of Toronto. You Ryan? Have you done anything for us as a community other than support the pulling of funding from Pride? From Inside Out to the recent beautiful film about two older women who got to marry in Toronto, to working at Pride and that is all I know of, I haven't even looked it up, since she came out as spokesperson for QuAIA I have seen her name all over the place... she is, I guess, a very productive clown... and you Ryan? What about you? What kind of a clown are you? You are not even a funny one. She looks like she has a sense of humour too, but you... hmm...
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/25/10 5:47 PM EST
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Wait wut?
“Their use of the swastika, whether crossed out or not, is absolutely unacceptable to me,” said Apple. “The minute any Jewish person – any informed person – sees that, you immediately want to leave that parade. It screams hate.” Right. Because gay people have no understanding about or experience with the symbolism of swastikas. Even when used within an anti-fascist/anti-nazi context.
me, Vancouver BC
06/25/10 5:49 PM EST
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Pride parade is not an empty spectacle
The issue of whether QuAIA is an 'appropriate' group within Pride is so often a misunderstood one. Pride is NOT just a parade in the celebratory sense (and one must also acknowledge that no parade is apolitical). Pride developed and still represents a political struggle for liberation and thus, it is perfectly acceptable that QuAIA be able to participate in the festivities, as the members of this group honour the liberation struggle of LGBTQ peoples by speaking out against the oppressive, occupying State of Israel.
Erin, Toronto Ontario
06/25/10 6:27 PM EST
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Middle East Politics
Now that Pride has reversed itself and allowed a group whose only concern is the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, the flood gates of non-LGBT rights groups to march are wide open. Say good-bye to government funding of any kind and the ending of corporate sponsorship. Get used to a much smaller pride attended by activists and a few of their closest friends.
bester, Toronto Ontario
06/25/10 6:46 PM EST
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I recently abandoned "Israel"
As a Jewish man, I used to support "Israel". But, sadly, I was misled and I apologize to all those people of progress I may have offended. I am now fully against "Israel". I have learned the history of this terrorist, apartheid "country" that only exists because Zionist Jews stole the land from the indiginous Palestinians. I am a man of considerable means and I now intend to right my past wrongs. What I mean is that I will commit my resources to advancing the cause of the Palestinians.
Mark Fishbein, Toronto ON
06/25/10 7:05 PM EST
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well bester
Sure....but you have no idea what an spontaneous party we can throw with or without city funding.... and I can trust you the cameras would be on us and no one will get arrested for marching without a permit. We didn't have a permit before, remember?
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/25/10 7:05 PM EST
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4 little things
oh hey, i've got something to say... 1. stop ISREALI APARTEID - it's war - it's wrong - remember nazi germany.......... 2. take your corporate money and put it in your pocket like you've been trained to do (rossi, mammoliti and ford??? - any more right wingers you want to bring to the table?) 3. support freedom of speech and expression 4. pride is political - it always has been, it always will be.
queer jew, toronto ON
06/25/10 7:53 PM EST
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Apartheid is hateful, Marise
Marise said: "Apartheid", he explained, is a racist crime. It is an evil form of racial separation that only racists can support. Ergo, wrongly labeling Israel as apartheid infers that all who support the Jewish state are racists. 1. Yes it is agreed that "apartheid" is a racist crime. 2. Yes, "It is an evil form of racial separation that only racists can support." 3. Yes, "WRONGLY" labeling Israel as apartheid infers that all who support the Jewish state are racists. But herein is the issue? Is it "wrong" to label Israel an apartheid state? Do all people of all religions and races have equal status, privileges and rights to land etc as do the Jews is Israel?
John, Toronto Ontario
06/25/10 8:14 PM EST
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Losse of the race
At one time I was going to vote for Rob Ford as I liked some of his values but now that he is on the side of Georgio Mammoliti a asshole who is in 2nd to last place and stands no chance of winner anything in this City. I hope all those in the Gay Community see him for who he is and not vote for him at all unless he removes his support. Georgio Mammoliti has been and always will be a asshole and has never had the support of anyone he is trying to buy Jewish votes and that is all there is too it.... Rob Ford you are not like in the Gay Community and you have now made it the point of most Gays in the community not to vote for you ....BIG BIG MISTAKE....
DJ, Toronto Ontario
06/25/10 8:43 PM EST
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The Spirit of Stonewall
Yes it would be hateful to WRONGLY label a state as practicing apartheid. Veterans of the South African struggle Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela have said that the situation in the West Bank is clearly apartheid. They should know. It is easy to point to the gentile Arab citizens of Israel and say, oh, no there is no apartheid. That's just sleight of hand. There are different situations in different places. True, apartheid is not practiced everywhere in Israel, but it is very much a defining characteristic in the occupied territories. And gentile Arab Israelis are subject to other forms of harassment and prejudice. Closer to home "Gay Pride" celebrates the anniversary of the Stonewall uprising and a the beginning of Gay Liberation Fronts across North America and abroad. These actions and organizations were the work of queer people who were very much involved with civil rights and anti-imperialist struggles. The GLF was named for the National Liberation Front, that is the Viet Cong fighting American imperialism. The Stonewall uprising was a spark in the middle of a broader rebellion demanding liberation for all oppressed peoples. To focus on assimilating homos into a mainstream, to ignore the struggles of other people, to kowtow to moneyed interests trying to silence any discussion of liberation anywhere is all a vast betrayal of what the Stonewall Uprising and the Gay Liberation Front were all about. Anybody who thinks "Gay Pride" isn't political knows nothing of our history, and anyone who thinks it has nothing to do with other issues insults our history. 40 years ago we didn't need corporate sponsors or city money. We just took to the streets and marched. How the hell did we get so bought off, institutionalized, and subservient to the politicians we used to rise up against? And anyone who thinks Israel is not practicing apartheid should spend a week living in Nablus with Palestinians.
Jack Fertig, San Francisco California
06/25/10 8:51 PM EST
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Marise: the fact is Israel is apartheid
Marise, I find it interesting when Israel's defenders make slapstick statements like "wrongly labeling Israel as an apartheid state is to accuse all Jews of being racist." Of course Marise, none of you making these kind of statements can answer to the charge of apartheid. In the West Bank, Jewish Israelis live with full citizenship rights on illegal settlements built on Palestinian land. Meanwhile Palestinians, living on smaller and smaller Bantustan-like enclaves of land, are forced to live under Israeli military rule. How is that not apartheid? Perhaps you would try to argue that is merely segregation? Please answer this question. But even inside Israel's pre-1967 borders, citizens are given different privileges and responsibilities based purely on race. A great number of privileges in Israeli society are tied to military service. This includes land ownership. The Jewish National Fund (JNF) controls about 90% of the land in Israel, which only sells land to those who have served in the Israeli Defense Forces. BUT Arabs are prohibited from serving and therefore are banned from most land ownership. Many orthodox Jews also do not serve in the IDF -- but they are granted exemptions so they can still purchase land. Many other privileges in society, such as employment and benefits, are tied to military service, so Israeli Arabs are often denied the same opportunities as Jewish Israelis. I once asked an Israeli woman "If Israel is not a racist state, why not let Arabs serve in the military?" She responded "for security reasons." So apparently in Israel a Jewish person is "secure" while an Arab is "insecure" (i.e. not to be trusted). To me this is pretty strange-- I'm an American and I can't help but think that actually the number of Arabs serving in the U.S. military is one of the fastest growing demographic trends in our military... but not in Israel. So Marise, please tell us, how is all of this NOT apa
Sav., Toronto ON
06/25/10 11:58 PM EST
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Elle Flanders is a Jew-diot
Perhaps if she were a successful documentary filmmaker she would not need to spend so much time grabbing the limelight for her 15 seconds of fame.
Queers Against Elle Flanders, Toronto Ontario
06/26/10 12:18 AM EST
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Xtra press badges
The Xtra article states that Elle Flanders and other QuAIA activists were denied entry to the press conference. The news release for the conference states that "proper media accreditation is required and will be checked on-site". See: http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/June2010/24/c8101.html Given its daily and incessant support for QuAIA over the last several weeks, I am surprised that Xtra didn't issue press badges to Flanders and her agitators.
Roy, Toronto Ontario
06/26/10 5:44 AM EST
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Rocco Rossi is dead to me -- DEAD TO ME!!
I was a committed Rossi voter but now that I see how he's grand standing on this issue and has thrown his lot in with long time homophobes like Mammoletti and Ford, well, he can blow me. And I don't mean that as a compliment!
Peter, Toronto ON
06/26/10 11:05 AM EST
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Peter
Peter, Your comment concernibg our Queer brother Rocco Rossi is disgusting. You are not a tolerant person that honors diversity and a difference of opinion in our community and as queers who are all entitled to their on stand, respectively. If you are a suppoeter of freedom of speech and or Quaia, they should be ashamed.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
06/26/10 1:00 PM EST
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Elle Flanders is a jerk
In a parade celebrating LGBT life and achievements, this asshat decides to inject MidEast politics, but not the let's support Palestine variety which is positive and cool with everyone, but the pejorative and inflammatory that threatens city funding. Elle Flanders' goal to use the Pride Parade to shit on Israel has turned the celebration into a cesspool of acrimony and I hate her for it. Karma, lady.
Zak, Toronto On
06/26/10 1:06 PM EST
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don't buy it
I don't buy the notion that everyone who supports Israel is a racist just because Israel has some racist policies. I believe the vast majority of people are more than capable of differentiating between the racist policies of a state and the rest of the state. There are many supporters of Israel who are opposed to the racist policies there both within Israel itself and around the world. Wanting a state to be better than it currently doesn't mean you're against that state. Israel is much more than its racist policies towards the Palestinians, playing some simple logical games to claim supporter's of Israel are racists, or viewed that way, denies the complexity that makes up every human being and their relationships to each other and to whatever state they identify with. Supporting Israel's racist policies may make one a racist, it may also make one uninformed, mislead, and/or ignorant of their nature. The whole situation can in no way be accurately described by the simple a=b=c logic of Apple and those who share her line of reasoning.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/26/10 1:13 PM EST
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vote Pantalone
Pantalone is the only mayoral candidate who came out in support of Toronto Pride and the right of free expression. I say vote for those who support our community and recognize its right of free expression and not anyone hostile to the community.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/26/10 1:17 PM EST
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Rocco Can Blow Me: Part II
Jamie: I'm a supporter of consistency. If douchebag Rossi thinks Pride is so awful that its funding should be pulled, then he should be principled enough to stay away. Of course, he is a typical politician who likes to say one thing and do another, and for that, he can blow me!
Peter, Toronto On
06/26/10 1:24 PM EST
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"Don't buy it" - me neither, Rich
Rich, you are enacting the classic straw-man argument... you can't actually answer the rationale I have presented for QuAIA's politics above, so you are trying to pretend that the argument is about "calling everyone who supports Israel a racist." As if QuAIA are the ones trying to kick Israel's supporters out of the parade and not the other way around. Let me say clearly, I do not believe everyone who supports Israel is racist. Some may be, but some may have other reasons or they just don't the situation in the occupied territories very well. And let me state clearly that QuAIA believes that Israel's SHOULD appear in the parade, just the same as us. We can both bring forward our message and people can decide for themselves.
Sav., Toronto ON
06/26/10 2:20 PM EST
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Religious Nationalism Into Apartheid
Why would anyone who is unbiased support the establishment of a religious state (theocracy) based upon land they have stolen from other people?Those in North America who support Israel while taking advantage of living in a secular state are intellectual hypocrites. Logically, they should be under the thumb of the christians, and like the Palestinians, dispossed. Furthermore, let me assure those who accept the propaganda that Israel is a democratic state they are uninformed. Every week I read reports of peaceful demonstrations by Palestinians in at least a dozen Palestinian village whose land is shut out by an apartheid wall that divides the Palestinians from their olives groves -- their fruit often stolen by the Israeli settlers (laregly coming over from North America). All they do is approach the wall with signs and they are shot at, tear gassed (with cannisters sometime shot at their faces in close range), beaten, doused with a stinking shit-water mixture and told that they are on closed military land. If it weren't for the presence of internationals and jewish Israelis (mostly "anarchists against the wall" their lives would be even more compromised. The villagers cannot even travel between west bank villages on roads built only for settlers. It is apartheid gone wild. Not all jews are Zionists but all Zionists are intrinsically racist. Just read what Theodor Herzl, the founder of Zionism wrote in his diaries -- and left to the Zionists of Nazi Germany to carry out: PLANNING FOR "THE HOLOCAUST"? “It is essential that the sufferings of Jews. . . become worse. . . this will assist in realization of our plans. . . I have an excellent idea. . . I shall induce anti-semites to liquidate Jewish wealth. . . The anti-semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-semites shall be our
Trevor Goodger-Hill, Trottier Mills Quebec
06/26/10 3:46 PM EST
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QuAIA and Pride Free Speech Coalition- GO AWAY!
Let's march in the Parade with our group called Queers Against QuAIA and Pride Free Speech Coalition Who wanna join? To QuAIA and Pride Free Speech Coalition, you CANNOT CENSOR OUR GROUP! I challenge you!
Proud Queer Feminist, Toronto Ontario
06/26/10 4:19 PM EST
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First Principles
Sucks for the gay community that Elle Flanders and QuAIA's need to denigrate Israel puts Pride at risk of losing funding after sabotaging Pride Toronto events and threatening to protest them. I hate that they've turned this into a free speech argument because that invites homophobia. Clearly the Israeli Apartheid bit is pissing off Toronto gays, so why don't they change it to something that makes everyone happy? It's frightening how intent they are to stick it to Israel amidst a sea of happiness.
Robin, Toronto ON
06/26/10 5:24 PM EST
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Politics and the English Language
Strikes again you people is what George Orwell warned us about and just another classic case. (http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm)
Peter From, Toronto ON
06/26/10 5:52 PM EST
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Peace Over PR
I really REALLY like Queer Proud Feminist's idea to march as 'Queers Against QuAIA' - but in light of today's hooliganism that took place downtown, I would advise ALL Pride revellers and participants to engage in ONLY peaceful assembly next weekend. As much as I would love to get all up in QuAIA's face about them wiping their asses all over Pride and using the queer community's blind opposition to "censorship" as their PR machine, it's best not to provoke them. Their true support will be measured by their reception at the parade, and I can guarantee after what they've put Pride through this year the boos will outnumber the hoorays. People have noticed that this group has only served to tear our community apart over what is essentially a philosophical argument that has endured for decades with no conclusion in reach. What is the point of dragging Middle Eastern politics, Anti-Israeli politics in particular, thru the streets of Toronto during an LGBT festival?? Oh right, this will enlighten all us silly ignorant Canadians and enable us to magically intervene and fix all the problems on the other side of the world.. Brilliant strategy.
Ryan, Toronto ON
06/26/10 7:50 PM EST
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great idea
what a great idea, "Queers against Quaia". I hope I see alot of individual not related to any group/clan rise up and stand alone wearing slogans such as that or "Don't raise your kids to be suicide bombers". "Queer against Ham ass". It is hard to stand for free speech, when the underlining message, however unintentional, is that Queer Jewish people supporting Israel's policies, the right for them as a Jewish nation to protect their citizens, are equivelant to "Israeli Terrorists." That is language that reinforces anti semetic views and myths that have been around for ever. Elle flanders states, this is not hate speech, she obviously has never experienced anti semetism here in canada like some of us have, to know what language will continue to marginalize Jewish people everywhere. Queer and straight. Jewish people face the myths and fear of their culture and religion where ever they go, so why use polarizing language that reinforces the stigma that already exist to them as a people.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
06/26/10 10:09 PM EST
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RE: Great Idea
What's stopping you? Seriously, if you feel strongly enough about it, step away from the computer, get off your ass, and go march. No one is going to try and stop you.
Karl, Toronto ON
06/26/10 10:33 PM EST
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Boo loud and Clear
Good post Ryan. I will be booing along with as many friends as I can bring along. QuAIA will be marching and because of the shit storm they have created for their pathic cause, they will be booed.
Don, Toronto Ontario
06/26/10 11:07 PM EST
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TIFF
Elle Flanders organized a similar boycott of TIFF over Tel Aviv films, but they told her to get lost. Where does Elle Flanders get off hijacking Toronto cultural events to promote her own political causes. Let's boycott Elle Flanders' and her creepy need to ruin Toronto's biggest events.
Geoff, Toronto On
06/26/10 11:34 PM EST
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The Origins of Apartheid
Where did South Africa learn to set up its system of apartheid (a word that means separateness in afrikaans)? Anyone know the answer? They studied the Canadian treatment of the aboriginal people on "Indian reservations" under the "Indian Act". Yes Canada is built on racism and genocide. I think as Canadians and as queers, who are personally aware of how damaging oppression is, we need to take a stand on this issue. Let's tell the truth of how our own original version of "apartheid" has damaged so many generations of First Nation's peoples and that the racism and discrimination continues. We can not stand by silently. We need to warn against this and be allies with our aboriginal peoples and their land claims and with the Palestinian people, both who live in the 4th world. SD
Susan Diane, Toronto Ontario
06/27/10 12:18 AM EST
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Karl
Hey Karl, I plan too. Do you want to join the Pro Israel march? You appear to be sitting on your ass reading alot of my ability to argue against anti Israeli Rhetoric. How about I buy wou a t-shirt that says one of the above. come join us peace loving Jewish queer people not asamed of Israeli taken control of terrorism in their region.
Jamie, Toronto Ontqrio
06/27/10 12:18 AM EST
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@ Susan Diane
I knew and anyone who studied Apartheid South Africa or History knows this but I think they really don't care about "the facts" but rather putting two words together and making a political cause out of it. In this case they are targeting Israel and I believe a few years ago the same people targeted the United States but learn they can't do anything to that country because it is to powerful.This is what George Orwell warned us about and they sound like a case out of anything he has written. If you tell them this they might just insult you and call you racist
Peter from, Toronto ON
06/27/10 1:21 AM EST
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again, deal with facts on the apartheid question
Peter From, for the zillionth time, here is the report from the Human Sciences Research Council, a South African government body, that explains in exhaustive detail that Israel is in fact an apartheid state. Are you capable of refuting any of the points in this report from the government of South Africa on apartheid in Israel? http://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/Occupation_Colonialism_Apartheid_.pdf
Sav., Toronto ON
06/27/10 11:27 AM EST
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@Sav
Off of someone certain blog? I guess you just copy and past but its does not talk about the history of Apartheid in South Africa and yes it did come from Canada sweetie they got the idea from us and also that was not even a South African Government Report that what makes it even more funny. BLAH BLAH BLAH funny how everything you people say comes off Rick's Blog? Does it? Yeah Blogs are not sources sweetie.
Peter from, Toronto ON
06/27/10 11:34 AM EST
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Peter = Troll
Seriously, don't feed the trolls. "Peter" doesn't even know what a "source" is; he dismisses sources as "not sources," but doesn't even define "source." Troll alert.
Rick, London Ontario
06/27/10 1:12 PM EST
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sourcing...
Um, Peter your claim above is really strange... I posted a link to an official document from the South African government... you somehow have that confused with some Canadian dude's blog?? I'm not even a blog reader. Most of my info on the conflict comes from: Democracy Now, Ha'aretz, Norman Finkelstein, and a few other things here and there.
Sav., Toronto ON
06/27/10 1:42 PM EST
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Boycott Elle Flanders
Elle Flanders tried to shut down TIFF over some Israeli films and failed and now the Pride Parade. Enough with this selfish woman hijacking Toronto cultural events as an opportunity to bash Israel. People in Toronto's arts community work hard all year round for our amazing festivals and Elle Flanders sabotages them because she believes her beliefs trump everything. Elle Flanders should give it a rest and let Toronto enjoy what they've worked so hard for.
Eric, Toronto ON
06/27/10 2:37 PM EST
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jamie + bush 4 eva
jamie did you really just imply that israel is merely protecting THEIR own region from terrorism? you should go on a date with George W.
queer jew, toronto ON
06/27/10 2:38 PM EST
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re: funding
I hope funding for this parade is going to be (immediately) withdrawn....
Jon, Montreal Qc
06/27/10 3:37 PM EST
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who needs funding?
pride never needing funding before. we definately don't need it now. especially from the likes of your kind.
queer jew, toronto ON
06/27/10 5:43 PM EST
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Good so we are in agreement
Good so we are in agreement. Then stop using public funding for the parade.
Jon, Montreal Qc
06/27/10 5:52 PM EST
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Rick = Useful Idiot + the Trolls
George Orwell warned us about and Yes you are
Peter From, Toronto ON
06/27/10 7:28 PM EST
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@ Sav or is it someone else?
You do realized that everything you source does have a political bias and Norman Finkelstein? really? Blah Blah Blah Blah and all that can be found on Rick's blog. It's not that hard to put this together, that document gave it away so Hi Rick's dual personality
Peter From, Toronto ON
06/27/10 7:34 PM EST
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@ Eric, Good Point
So Elle Flanders says she's Jewish and lived in Israel. So why can't she go back there and hijack a cultural event there? I think the Israeli Press would love that, I wonder why not?
Peter From, Toronto ON
06/27/10 7:42 PM EST
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Shelley Albert said it best.
Shelley Albert has said it best and I think there are many queers who share that viewpoint. Its a shame that Pride bowed to this group of extremeists who are trying to use Pride for their own agenda. That said, I give the Pride Committee kudos for working so hard each year to put on this wonderful event, despite whatever controversies erupt.
Jeremy, Calgary Alberta
06/28/10 12:45 AM EST
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Hey, it's supposed to be a party
Whatever gay pride has become in Toronto, it is clearly not about "gay unity". I think for most people gay pride is about...,er, "pride" and maybe "celebration". It's supposed to be just a big party, isn't it? I think most of us just look forward to checking out the hot guys and gals. Gay people can be proud of many things but it seems to me that the gay community (in Toronto, at least) can no longer be proud of its unity. The spirit of Stonewall was about gays joining together and rising up to claim their rights. It has nothing to do with Israel. It seems to me that a minority is trying to impose their own political views on the many who go to this event. There should be no pro-Israel or anti-Israel statements at this event. It's a gay parade for chrissakes. The only political statements made should be about gay rights. It annoys the hell out of me that the "queers against Israeli apartheid" are not demonstrating in support of their suppressed gay brothers and sisters in Muslim countries. No, instead they target Israel. It's like everything has to be subordinated to this debate. Sorry, but I don't agree.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
06/28/10 3:27 AM EST
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And yet Jim
I have never seen the queer community so united about anything...it was beautiful. We are so proud of ourselves, of the type of people we are, of how we don't let people like you tell us who we are and who we are supposed to be or define how united we are. The queer community came together and we made a difference. Like in Stonewall.... I guess nothing is as "clear" as you think. People who say things like "clearly"... tend to be terrible at writing, researching and thinking. Nothing is "clearly" sweetie.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/28/10 6:21 PM EST
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@ Tam just attacks anyone she disagrees with
funny ,the only thing "clear" how you act like the ills of the past and it really does not take a super genius to look through you. If you do have a point then say it but you just attack anyone that disagrees with you. Oh I forgot your a "Super Genius" and also this is a democracy so people might have different view points but I also forgot it only works one way in your point of view. Kind of something George Orwell warned us about. Yeah your also not the community or can you speak for it, does not take a "Super Genius" to figure this one out either. You might want to get some help.
Peter From, Toronto ON
06/28/10 6:46 PM EST
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Hateful Tam
Wow, talk about abrasive... I'm starting to understand though what's happening. Many years ago, just weeks out of the closet, I stood trembling and weeping watching my first gay pride parade in Toronto, shaken to the very core of my being at what I was seeing around me. It was an affirmation of love and hope, and it helped launch my second life. At one of the parties that night I danced for hours in a tight group of beautiful men, celebrating unity in a profound physical way that I can barely bring myself to express. I can only hope that every young person has the opportunity to go through this experience. If you have succeeded in denyhing that experience to one single young gay person, of any gender, religion, age or race, then you should be deeply, deeply ashamed of yourself Tam. Each of us (Jew and gentile) deserves to feel comfortable at that parade. None of your petty, smarmy, small-minded, hateful politics should be able to destroy that. And judging by your reaction to my post, and what I've read here, yes, "clearly" gay pride in Toronto is no longer about unity. Thanks Tam.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
06/28/10 7:28 PM EST
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Confrontation, exclusion, superiority
Tam, I'd like to add that your post also shows that you seem to be the type of person who feeds off of hate. I'm not Jewish, but I suspect anti-semitism is behind all of this. You talk about the unity of the "queer community" (whatever that is) but it all just smells of exclusion and confrontation and superiority vibes. And ultimately a dysfunction of some kind. Please don't think for even 10 seconds that you represent me or anyone I have ever met in the gay community.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
06/28/10 7:53 PM EST
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Xtra, the one sided media
I notice there are some people who live and desire gossip, (or maybe its just those at Xtra) who over the past month hounded Pride Toronto by publishing continuing questions and stories why it was wrong for Pride to 'disallow' the Israeli Apartheid phrase. Its nice to see Xtra has finally started being 'versatile' after being pro-QuAIA for much of this debate. I don't think Xtra has any neutrality other than to push the gay agenda. Well I have news for you, not every queer lives downtown and not every queer reads Xtra or Fab - same diff right? Same editor. Same opinions. I'm not Jewish and I still support the "Israeli Apartheid" ban. I did not approve of QuAIA's move (prior to Pride Toronto recent decision) to disrupt offical Pride events. They also made it no secret they would assemble with intent to march hidden amongst other groups in the parade. Those sound like nearly guerilla tactics, something I don't want in my Canada or my Toronto Pride Parade.
Steve, Toronto ON
06/29/10 12:48 AM EST
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If anyone wants a good book on the Subject
of Gay life in the Arab World and in Palestinian Society then the book "Unspeakable Love: Gay and lesbian life in the Middle East" by Brian Whitaker. This book does talk about the lives of Queers in the region and does talk about the lives of Queer Palestinians and does tell how the QuAIA is just lying to everyone, because it does talk about how they do want Israel but sometimes in some-case are not liked by their own society and even the challenges they do face in Israel too but its not how the QuAIA says it is Israel's fault for their suffering. But I also do stand in solidarity with Palestinian Queers too from the people who want to them for their political agenda
Peter From, Toronto ON
06/29/10 2:42 AM EST
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Advocating for human rights
If we can't advocate for human rights in Israel and the occupied territories, who is going to advocate for human rights in Canada? It would be anti-Canadic to comment about human rights in Canada. Gays and lesbians have the right to get married and hold parades. To comment about the G20 weekend would be very anti-Canadic and hateful toward hard-working Canadians.
SD, Toronto ON
06/29/10 10:12 AM EST
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Killing 1,400 people is hateful Jimmy
I find it ironic that you call me hateful while you stand by Israel after it killed 3,000 people in recent useless wars, most of whom were children, after it keeps on stealing land from palestinians, after it keeps children's toys and clothes from reaching Gaza. I find it ironic that you call me hateful when you support a government in which people say "they are putting palestinians in gaza ona diet" because they don't allow enough food to meet basic nutritional needs. I find it really ironic. Your story was touching, I am almost broke a tear, but it isn't my fault if you don't want to come in and enjoy our very diverse community. You are not the only type of Jewish person there is, so please stop generalizing or pretending that this excludes them. QuAIA is full of Jewish people who realize how hateful the state of Israel is.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/29/10 1:25 PM EST
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@ Tam your a joke
wow you must have the most limited world view ever. Every day people mostly civilians die of War some where in the World. Two weeks ago 2000 people all civilians died in Kyrgyzstan, also two weeks 120 people were bombed by Turkey and yes they did die. So were is the outraged? but with you Pacifist it must be Israel's fault too. Also as for that Aid, Israel did give it all to the people of Gaza, funny how Hamas rejected it all(http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=177320) . Tam I really doubt you even have a education, but just like to bash anyone that disagrees with you and then act like a "Super Genius " because you like to copy link from a certain blog. I can't believe that you are also the people that George Orwell warns us about, I guess your living proof
Peter from, Toronto ON
06/29/10 1:50 PM EST
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Tam just doesn't get it
In the face of atrocities perpetuated by Islamic governments, like 350,00 plus killed in Sudan, Tam's insistence on Israel's kills is clearly anti-semitic. That she focuses on Israel in the face of Iran hanging gays publicly and Palestinians ratting out gay neighbours, she clearly has a hate-on for Jews. Darling, your white hood is showing. Also, you'd do well to pick up a copy of Strunk & White.
zezi, Toronto ON
06/29/10 2:03 PM EST
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Peter
I have not been asked, nor does my government, support any of those killings. I also have a limited amount of time to deal with human rights. I am not someone who goes to protests, nor do I usually get involved in these types of abuses. Israel got lucky with me because the pro-israel side kept on trying to convince me that the palestinians deserved it, that they weren't like us, that Israel could do no wrong. I have never met anyone who defends any other mass murders... just the pro-Israel side. I can't quite tell you about what happened in Kyrgyzstan or compare, but I find that Israel is worse than most countries I have ever studied including Latin American countries and recent Russia with its rebels. Peter, let's agree to disagree, you are simply not an intellectual equal and it makes no sense having an argument about war with someone who makes their living from war. Of course you'd like war. How else are you going to make money to live. The military is full of underachievers. And, may I point out, that if you loved your country, you could have become ... I don't know, a fire fighter. That way you really could have done something for us. What exactly did you do for us going to Afghanistan again? Back to your arguments, your arguments are so bad, so very bad, they are like saying that we shouldn't worry about homophobia because the tibetans are treated worse, or that we shouldn't worry about anti-semitism because homosexuals have it worse. You are just so very very dumb Peter. Please talk to other people. You can tell Jimmy something stupid like "that was a very good point Jimmy"... this is just hillarious.
Peter, Toronto Ontario
06/29/10 2:08 PM EST
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Sudan and Israel... same thing
They are both killing civilians and then complaning it is because they started it. One is muslim, the other is Jewish. Neither my government or its allies support sudan, when they do, you can be sure I'll get on it.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/29/10 2:18 PM EST
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Hi Tam Dual Personality, comment above
Wow Tam you are sinking lower and lower and yes you are just proving how you are the people George Orwell warns us about. Also if you did study Latin America or Russia(Soviet Union) then tell us about the thousands and thousands that were killed by the hand of their own government? Also sweetie the Military are not underachievers we just have to defend your rights from those who don't want to you to say the garbage you say they are usually the pacifists friends in other places of the world these days.( So yes that's why I was in the Military sweetie and ask our Queer brothers and sisters in the Military too and try calling them "underachievers " there are a lot of us, most of them are Doctors ) Also Tam you just bash people who don't agree with and use the Internet as sources. Real ones don't use the Internet, and it does not take a Super Genius to figure out that you seem to have "problems" and also you seem to have a lot of "hate" in you. You might want to consider getting professional help. I do know Gay Doctor in the military that specializes in this, I think he would not mind helping you since you seem to need a lot of it.
Peter from, Toronto ON
06/29/10 2:27 PM EST
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Peter... really?
Peter, Talk to yourself sweetie. What you don't understand is that it isn't that I attack everyone who disagrees with me, it is just that while I initially have a high tolerance for stupidity, when I interact with stupidity consistently, my tolerance just drops. I have been exchanging posts with you... and my patience has waned. I doubt that most of the military are doctors, but I would be happy to see some statistics that show that over 50% of non civilian personnel are doctors. Also, in your case, you have demonstrated that even with an MA in history, the military doesn't seem to produce quality. I know, it is unfair to judge them all based on you. There might even be a few who are smart. But, you don't even know what a source is, as Rick said, and your argumentative skills are completely illogical. I'll explain, if you were a computer, you'd be an Atari. And your keyboard would be sticky.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/29/10 2:56 PM EST
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@ Tam said completely illogical I wonder
who you really are. I think I found out his dual personality too since he uses these cards too and Yes Tam in Canada Sweetie we can serve openly so there is really no need for statistics and Tam believe me when I say there are many Queers in the military we to play with each other too. Funny and yes a lot of the ones I did meet were doctors or other professionals or soldiers and we are not in it for a job its something else you can't seem to process . Funny you think you are "smart" becasue you only use the internet as sources and all the links come from a certain blog . Well I guess those Super Genius can't even give publish material to back anything they say up. Yes Tam I do have a MA in History but of course you bad things becasue I don't agree with you politically and people who study history are not in that business using History to back up political causes. It can be very dangerous and the people who do are usually members of hate groups and it does sound you do have a lot of hate in you towards a certain group of people. Yes Tam I think you also don't even understand the realities of War. Also I don't make a living from War, I do help out people here in Canada mostly since I'm usually in Canada and I also bet you did not even know that people in the Military do help people in communities across the country. Also we are also not forced to go anywhere and we can choose if we want to go to Afghanistan or anywhere. I find it most interesting when I was in Bosnia I saw a lot of innocent people die by the hands of their government, while you Pacifists were openly supporting that government and their crimes against them. Oh well I guess Super Genius Tam can support one sided killing and hiding behind civilians which your Jihadist friends do, but blame Israel for all the problems in the world. Well I guess your world view is so limited and that you must blame Israel becasue its more easier to do so .
Peter from, Toronto ON
06/29/10 3:28 PM EST
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@ Tam
who you really are. I think I found out his dual personality too since he uses these cards too and Yes Tam in Canada Sweetie we can serve openly so there is really no need for statistics and Tam believe me when I say there are many Queers in the military we to play with each other too. Funny and yes a lot of the ones I did meet were doctors or other professionals or soldiers and we are not in it for a job its something else you can't seem to process . Funny you think you are "smart" becasue you only use the internet as sources and all the links come from a certain blog . Well I guess those Super Genius can't even give publish material to back anything they say up. Yes Tam I do have a MA in History but of course you bad things becasue I don't agree with you politically and people who study history are not in that business using History to back up political causes. It can be very dangerous and the people who do are usually members of hate groups and it does sound you do have a lot of hate in you towards a certain group of people. Yes Tam I think you also don't even understand the realities of War. Also I don't make a living from War, I do help out people here in Canada mostly since I'm usually in Canada and I also bet you did not even know that people in the Military do help people in communities across the country. Also we are also not forced to go anywhere and we can choose if we want to go to Afghanistan or anywhere. I find it most interesting when I was in Bosnia I saw a lot of innocent people die by the hands of their government, while you Pacifists were openly supporting that government and their crimes against them. Oh well I guess Super Genius Tam can support one sided killing and hiding behind civilians which your Jihadist friends do, but blame Israel for all the problems in the world. Well I guess your world view is so limited and that you must blame Israel becasue its more easier to do so.
Peter From, Toronto ON
06/29/10 3:30 PM EST
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Peter... I am so sorry
I didn't know you were going to get so upset and sensitive about it. I am sure you have problems. I am not going to even read what you have to say because, well, you know, I don't believe in people who have such a huge advantage over contenders beating them over and over again with the same stick. It doesn't matter if they don't have what it takes to realize that they have these problems. I could try to teach you about sources, show you all your logical mistakes, it would lead to nothing... why bother? So, once again, I am sorry. I will continue to ignore you and I won't read anything you write. I hope you can one day find a job that suits your abilities without having to endanger the lives of innocent people. Ciao.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/29/10 4:35 PM EST
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@ Tam logical mistakes you make them not me
Wow Tam I hope you get some help since you seem to have little respect for who defend your rights and Tam I do have a real job and we don't endanger the lives of innocent people unlike the people who don't have a problem hiding behind them such as your Pacifist allies do or support governments that do endanger the lives of innocent people. You might want to tell this to Queers or Women in the Islamic world or in Afghanistan unless your going to start Queers for the Taliban. Maybe read the book"Unspeakable Love: Gay and lesbian life in the Middle East" by Brian Whitaker it does talk about the lives of Queer Palestinians and the realities they face and it not by Israel or maybe your too blinded by your hate to do so. Wow I think you might be Rick since he uses the same cards to censor people.
Peter From, Toronto ON
06/29/10 4:51 PM EST
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You can't take being ignored eh?
Peter, I read your headline. I am well aware of my logical abilities... so, you can try to undermine them all you want, it isn't going to have an effect. It is one tricky thing Peter... if you don't know how to do it right, you also don't know when other people have something you don't. I could show you in detail why so much of what you have said is illogical, but it takes time and while I am altruistic in general, I think it would be wasted on you. You are an attention seeker aren't you? Interesting. Unbecoming, but interesting.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/29/10 5:22 PM EST
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@ Tam just attacks anyone she disagrees with
of course you do this because you can't stand someone that disagrees with you of course the logical abilities card(Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah) . Wow you are in need of help because you sound that you have a lot of hate in you and that hate drives you to attack. Well using insults is something you like to do when you can't make a argument. Funny how you can make a argument other then blaming Jews or Israel. But there are the insults you use when you can't even make a argument. Tam, Darling, your white hood is showing. Tam Maybe read the book"Unspeakable Love: Gay and lesbian life in the Middle East" by Brian Whitaker it shows your lies since nearly half a chapter talks about Queer Palestinians but I really doubt you will because it a book and not the internet since the Internet is what the so called Super Genius use
Peter From, Toronto ON
06/29/10 5:41 PM EST
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and you are a little angel...
move on peter...
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/29/10 5:44 PM EST
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@ Tam
You might want to get professional help with your issues its really clear that you need it
Peter From, Toronto ON
06/29/10 5:46 PM EST
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Ha!
I really do hate that I am hurting your feelings. It must be hard, I can't imagine you were ever the smart on in the class. Ciao.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/29/10 6:43 PM EST
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Tam others have said it too not just me
Tam you are full of it and yes you seem to hate a group of people who who they are and Yes Tam insulting People are not going to make your argument better after all darling, your white hood is showing every time and sweetie, your just saying a hot of Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah that's what it is.
Peter From, Toronto ON
06/29/10 7:08 PM EST
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to 'me,Vancouver'
me, Vancouver BC 06/25/10 5:49 PM EST said..."Right. Because gay people have no understanding about or experience with the symbolism of swastikas. Even when used within an anti-fascist/anti-nazi context." ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?? Are you not aware that homosexuals were hunted and rounded up by Hitler's henchmen jUST LIKE the Jewish community?! They murdered over 50,000 gay people, and people they judged as being gay. Don't talk about gays not having any experience with swastikas! It only displays your vast ignorance of our history!
Darryl Robert Browne, Regina Saskatchewan
06/30/10 1:47 AM EST
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It's not worth it
Peter - no, you're not the only one reacting to Tam (and this issue) in this way. I'd leave Tam alone though: she's here to piss people off. She's into conflict, hate, confrontation. The shriller, the better. The Israel issue attracts her for that very reason. There's nothing she won't write to boost her ego. She's flirting with anti-semitism because, well, that's her personality. I don't even think she's gay, to be honest with you. She does give you a good idea though of the personalities behind this whole mess. And it gives me more respect for the parade organisers who have to deal with people like this on a regular basis.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
06/30/10 3:37 AM EST
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@Darryl Robert Browne
Darryl, the comment from 'me' above is obviously meant in sarcasm. Queers were targeted by the Nazis and we all know that. What 'me' is saying is that rejecting Nazism is just as important to us as queers as to us to any of us who might be Jewish (or both Jewish and queer). We all understand the meaning of the crossed-out swastika (anti-Nazism, including being against the murder of queers and Jews alike), unfortunately a minority of people in this debate have intentionally chosen to pretend not to understand the meaning of the symbol, and intentionally tried to conflate anti-nazism with 'nazism.' Luckily most people aren't falling for this rather pathetic argument.
Sav., Toronto ON
06/30/10 10:09 AM EST
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Tam Shut Up
I think both sides in the debate would be best served if Tam would shut up. Nuff said.
D.T., Torotno ON
06/30/10 1:44 PM EST
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@D.T. and Jim
Thanks and could not agree more
Peter from, Toronto ON
06/30/10 1:58 PM EST
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Will The 519 now lift its own ban?
The 519 Community Centre was a strong advocate for lifting Pride Toronto’s ban on Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QuAIA). See: http://www.the519.org/newsfeed/the519issuesstatementonfreedomofexpressionatpride2010 Will The 519 now lift its own ban on queer groups that question whether HIV is the sole cause of AIDS? Historically, the 519 has banned those queer groups from using its premises. See: http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/hiv/sgheal.htm
Jake, Toronto Ontario
07/01/10 11:11 PM EST
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