Queers frustrated by Pride Toronto plan subversions, competing events
TORONTO / 'We're taking back our fucking march'
Marcus McCann / National / Thursday, June 17, 2010
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Go to Pride Toronto (PT) events and defy the ban — that is the message queer activists are sending partiers in the lead-up to Toronto’s gayest weekend.

That stands in contrast to early calls for a boycott; most now plan to use official events to denounce organizers and make statements about PT and censorship.

Since PT announced its ban on the term “Israeli apartheid” on May 25, gay people have been organizing through Facebook and in person to convince PT to reverse its decision.

>> Read how this story developed here

The Pride Coalition for Free Speech — an ad hoc group founded to fight the ban — hosted a meeting at the 519 Church Street Community Centre on June 7 that drew more than 300 people.

Roy Mitchell, a member of the coalition, says he’s watching people organize in a flurry — everything from skits to banner-making — as people turn their frustration into action.

“We want Pride. We love Pride. We probably love it more than we ever had,” he says.

He’s never seen this kind of energy before, he says.

Those who oppose PT’s decision to censor QuAIA, no matter how they feel about the Middle East, are invited to march with the Pride Coalition for Free Speech — if its application is approved by PT staff, that is.

“We are happy to take anyone under our banner who wants to join us,” says Mitchell, who is also organizing a free-speech cabaret on June 29.

Those marching with other groups can contact the coalition if they want to carry free-speech signs during the parade, he says, although they’re still working out how to pay for everything.

Hundreds packed a meeting at The 519, where plans were hatched to protest Pride Toronto's censorship decision.
(Matt Mills)


Outrage over the censorship decision is tapping into other longstanding grievances with PT: the organization’s lack of transparency; its relationship with corporate and city funders; its treatment of programming for trans people and people of colour; its muzzling of artists through PT’s performer contract.

At a June 12 coalition meeting, some talked about whether they should use the banned term, “Israeli apartheid,” in their messaging. Some argued the term was divisive, while others said that using the contested term is an important way of protesting censorship.

While they settled on “Our Pride includes free speech” as their overarching theme, some will add “PS Israeli apartheid” to their banners, placards and T-shirts in order to defy the ban without making a statement about Israeli foreign policy. When the panellists of PT’s human rights program pulled out, they used that phrase to thumb their noses at the ban.

A protest of the Pride flag-raising at City Hall is set for June 28. As an event that brings together both PT and City of Toronto officials — under the watchful eye of camera crews — it’s a ripe target.

Pride belongs to the queer community, not PT: that was another recurring theme at the coalition’s community meeting. Amy Gottlieb and Sasha Van Bon Bon both hammered the point home.

“Excuse me, Martin Gladstone,” said Gottlieb, referring to one of the chief agitators for the ban, “but we are reclaiming our Pride.”

Van Bon Bon, who is organizing Take Back the Dyke to compete directly with the PT Dyke March, announced her plans to rousing applause.

“It’s not an alternative to the Dyke March. It is the Dyke March,” she said. “We’re taking back our fucking march.”


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Reader Comments


 
The basic facts on QuAIA
Now, before the comments begin to pile up, let me be the first to repeat the basic facts about Pride Toronto and Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QuAIA). The two primary requirements for participation in Pride are to be: (1.) part or supportive of the LGBT community; and, (2.) law-abiding. QuAIA [http://www.quaia.org] meets both of these requirements. Singling out one group that meets the requirements and then banning its lawful political speech is censorship [http://tinyurl.com/censordef2]. In Canada, freedom of expression -- including lawful political speech -- is constitutionally protected as a fundamental right. That right is a foundational pillar of any liberal democracy. SO, I suggest: Either (try to) refute these basic facts, or just admit that you support censorship of differing opinions.
Rick, London Ontario
06/17/10 8:47 AM EST
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anybody organizing a protest of the protest?
You don't really care about free speech when you just want to shout others down. Drowning out the voices of others so that you can be heard the loudest is an ironic way of fighting for free speech. Shame on everybody who plans on ruining Pride.
Ryan, Toronto ON
06/17/10 9:08 AM EST
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Really Ironic
@ryan Dude what are you so scared of? There's room for everyone. What's truly ironic is the fact that you're against politics at Pride. Pride= Politics+Party
Jeremy, Toronto Ontario
06/17/10 10:12 AM EST
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@Ryan
In what way does participation ruin Pride? Or do you mean that it will upset the corporate sponsors?
JG, Toronto ON
06/17/10 10:33 AM EST
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Let's Ruin Pride!
Let me get this right - QuAIA members and supporters couldn't get their shit together to organize their own events so they're switching gears and attending Pride events but protesting the events they're attending? Seriously? Why bring a grenade to the party? Do the gays a favor and keep your angry selves at home or wave your banners and fists outside the Israeli consulate instead of Woody's. p.s. Nobody outside the QAIA/Xtra/Facebook coterie cares about Sasha, Elle Flanders and their egos.
Soren, Toronto On
06/17/10 10:43 AM EST
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its about saving Pride
Soren they will protesting the censorship of the LGBT community by Pride Inc not Pride itself, Pride belongs to the entire LGBT community and not just those who have the "correct" politics concerning Israel and those who couldn't care less about their rights being being attacked and eroded.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/17/10 11:01 AM EST
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Attending Pride to Protest Pride
QuAIA has called off the boycott, but instead of protesting Israel, Israelis and Jews, they'll be protesting Pride itself? That's great for the LGBT community and should be a lot of fun for all the newly out, and those looking for support and camaraderie. NOT! Exactly what the homophobes and gay haters want. We're out worst enemy.
Paige, Toronto ON
06/17/10 11:20 AM EST
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@Paige
Perhaps for the first time in a while newly out people will learn how to protect their rights as well as having a good time. Some substance instead of the fake sense that coming is a bed roses. What is wrong with the truth? I am not happy with Pride Toronto this year, I am queer,I have the right to express it. It has nothing to do with Middle East politcs. The homophobes have done enough damage already by arm twisting PT into submission and their opinion is irrelevant.
JG, Toronto ON
06/17/10 12:07 PM EST
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Interesting!
Take a look at the website link is at http://www.pridetoronto.com/news/doug-elliott-speaks-at-law-society-event/
SexyQueer, Toronto Ontario
06/17/10 2:56 PM EST
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Doug Elliot is right
Thank you for the link SexyQueer. I just finished reading Doug Elliot´s speech. It was very eloquent and obviously from the heart. I highly recomend that everyone read it. My biggest fear in all of this conflict over what Pride "should be" could result in Pride being lost for everyone. As Doug points out it has happened before. We have been able to adapt in the past to political disagreements over our celebration, I just hope we will again.
Don, Toronto Ontario
06/17/10 5:49 PM EST
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re: Doug Elliot is right
I read and enjoyed the article but I don't share his fear that Pride is at risk, it may shrink it may grow it may change in different ways but I honestly believe there will always be a Pride in some way shape or form. I also don't think his idea of having a separate march for political types would work either, he suggested something like the Dyke and Trans marches but they are still welcome in the main Pride parade while presumably the political groups would not be, however it could work if all political groups were in the same part of the parade so if you didn't want to see or hear it you could take a break, go get a drink or whatever... actually that pretty much is the way it is now isn't it? To be honest I rarely watch the entire parade and often take breaks during it or move positions and I've missed many years too especially after it started getting so huge with such massive crowds. Anyways I don't think the community is as badly split as some think, at least the splits aren't that deep, besides its never been a truly unified community except for short periods when celebrating recent rights gains or back when protesting the bath house raids, that was before my time. Anyways this whole debacle has re-enforced for me the futility of censorship, the efforts to silence QuAIA and their message has backfired in a major way, QuAIA went from being a small group most never heard about or paid much attention to to now being known across Canada and the world with solidarity QuAIA's starting to pop up, far more people have heard QuAIA's message than they could have ever dreamed of in their wildest dreams because of the efforts to silence them. If Gladstone and his ilk had decided to accept their right to free speech and instead of trying to silence them focused on presenting a different view of Israel none of this would have happened and QuAIA would still be a small obscure group few had heard of or paid attention to.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/17/10 6:43 PM EST
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Piggy-Backing at its worst
I share Soren's sentiments completely. If the angry mob is so unified then they can organize their own GD march, but instead they've chosen the easy way of freeloading off Pride. It's also known as piggy-backing, like when someone stands behind you to get into a locked door. These tools want to ruin Pride for everybody because they seem to think they have ownership in the festival solely on account of being a queer minority. But what have they contributed to Pride's organization? NOTHING. Why pay the fare when you can just rush the turnstile? These people need to get lives and stop getting in everyone's face. If you're just going to be unruley and aggressive about your own pet issue, stay home and leave everyone else alone.
Ryan, Toronto ON
06/17/10 10:06 PM EST
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Ryan
First, these tools made Pride. They have been fighting for queer rights for years and many have served on boards and volunteered at Pride. That would mean that you are piggy backing your fun on all their hard work. As for them making their own march, you haven´t heard? Let me tell you, just in case you feel "unsafe" as a result of some mental problem you should check out, they are. At least the women are planning a march and it has 1,000 people who say they are coming, and counting... and those people are bringing more people... and they will probably intercept the dyke march. As for other events at Pride, it appears you will never see so much "israeli apartheid" in a weekend... have you not noticed that the entire queer community has already heard the words "israeli apartheid" at least 50 times? Do you know what effect that has?
sean, Toronto Ontario
06/17/10 11:33 PM EST
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What a Cheep Political stunt and please get a life
Does Pride Toronto attract hundreds of thousands of people ? So who really cares? This sounds a lot like TIFF 09 when the same people tried this becasue the film festival was showing some Israeli made movies (Remember) or at the Dead Sea Exhibit at the Royal Ontario Museum and did anyone even care? No, and I really doubt these people don't even have jobs like the rest of us and it seems that the same three posters are most likely carrier activists who just jump from one cause to another to make them look good on the far left. Also these are people who can't stand that they are not in the spotlight and will do cheep political stunts like this in order to get attention from the media when in reality no one cares. This is kind of like TIFF 09 all over again and how many people really cared in the end? So what if they can get a thousand people on a facebook group. Remember the TO is a city of 5 million people and not to mention the hundreds of thousands that go to pride every year. But the same people do this becasue they want attention and can not stand not being in the spotlight and also these people most likely are just carrier activists who don't have real jobs like the rest of us. Also Xtra has shown that they are clearly in bed with the QuAIA and so why can't they send reporters to Israel and the Palestinian Territories to show us the real story behind all this and tell us the realities of Queer Israelis and Palestinians? I real newspaper would do this.
Sexy Patrick, Toronto Ontario
06/18/10 2:37 AM EST
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Elliot's analysis simplistic and troubling
Doug Elliot's analysis is troubling in several regards. He says that there is no "absolute" right to free speech. No one said there was. Just the right to have a legal named group march. He says that the whole debacle is really about those pro and those against Israel. Yet many of us fighting for free speech (And marching for it in Pride itself which we support) are not opponents of Israel, and even QUAIA itself is only against certain Israeli policies (not Israel). And Doug's telling veteran activists to go to Montenegro if they want the "good old days" of hostility from governments is very insulting to people who have given their lives to further LGBT rights and continue to do so. Many of those against the free speech ban are younger activists too like Matthew Cutler, last year's Pride"s honoree for youth excellence. This is not about Israel or the Middle East. It is about Toronto and free speech in our own Pride parade. And we will march proudly in the parade under the banner of "Our Pride Includes Free Speech". Pride will not wither or die but in the end be revitalized. Doug Elliot has been a great lawyer and gay activist, but in this speech he has hit the wrong targets. The bad guys are not veteran activists, but the majority of Pride Toronto's current Board and Director. BTW I don't see how Doug can say he does not know how he would vote if he was on the Board. It isn't rocket science to allow a group to march who are breaking no laws and who are queer activists (some of very long standing and proven mettle) who feel strongly about a wrong.
james dubro, toronto ontario
06/18/10 8:16 AM EST
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In a couple weeks...
This will all be over for the world - and the protesters will be so exhausted over nothing. Just think of the wasted energy that is being taken away from Pride TO. I think folks at QAIA might want to take on a new focus - how about fight for the rights of Gays in the Middle East, Russia, Persia and other parts of the world. That's what Pride is about - standing up for other gays and lesbians who are being stepped on - who have no voice. The state of Israel does not step on gays and lesbians. For their other imperfections concerning Gaza and the Westbank - take that march to the Israeli embassy. Why not fight for the cleaning up of our community of the drug culture which is blatantly shown off as acceptable.I forgot - that's stepping on our freedom of expression. Better to have an overdosed fag than a "wholesome" fag. This minuscule attempt by QAIA and their "need a cause" wannabees is pathetic beyond reproach.
Peter, Toronto ON
06/18/10 8:24 AM EST
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Peter-not for you to choose a person's cause
Peter I don't think you can tell another group what they should be marching about. That is their decision. And championing free speech is hardly a "pathetic cause." Tell that to the Civil Liberties Association who support our desire to rescind the unprecedented Pride ban. stop name calling and try and see that if one person or group is denied legitimate free speech we all are. And I am sure there are people marching and campaigning about some of the laudable causes you mention. But each person should be allowed to pick their own cause to rally around. And the cause of "free speech" is a noble one.
JAmes dubro, toronto ontario
06/18/10 8:33 AM EST
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What this is about
I know, like and deeply respect Doug Elliot so I took the time to read his speech. I am very tired of this thing being all about middle east politics, a problem to which I have no solution. Pride Toronto has become a corporation and has hired an ultra conservative think tank (Navigator)who, amongst other things gave us Mike Harris and my personal favourite "talking points" to communicate with the gay community. Pride has attempted to move in the dark so we wouldn't notice, but e-mails seems to leak out of PT with each shady lie and distortion. Doug, others pounding away at this tired middle east debate, you miss the point. This community has been lied to and patronized by PT under the assumption we are not adults who can grasp tough issues. Two words which do not violate any hate law speeches but make people "uncomfortable" have been censored. A fringe organization few had heard of is now as famous as British Petroleum in this community and people who simply want to enjoy Pride are feeling horribly disenfranchised. After this Pride has taken place, and it will, this community will have to find common ground and deal with this issue. Until such time, protests will occur, as they should. That does not mean that Pride will not be one hell of a party and I do hope you all have a great time. That last sentence is the most important part of my long rambling post. Happy Pride to all.
Peter Bochove, Toronto Ontario
06/18/10 3:04 PM EST
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Treated like any other counter-protestor
You know what, I have no more respect for these so-called queers than I do for the so-called "ex-gays". If straight people turned up to protest Pride, they'd probably be dealt with by the police. Let equality be!
William, Montreal QC
06/18/10 3:20 PM EST
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Get off my lawn!
That's some list of grievances, Peter Bochove. You sound like a sad angry man. Maybe you should volunteer for Pride Toronto and share your ideas to help work for change. Doug's speech reminds us of the spirit of Pride and how the community's grown beyond bathhouse culture to celebrate gay identity.
Rand, Toronto ON
06/18/10 3:33 PM EST
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Be careful what you read
I have followed the comments on this topic for some time (other articles on Xtra) and would warn people that not every pro-QuAIA 'person' who posts is legit. A few of them have slipped up quite openly by posting under different names as if trying to strengthen their position with a show of numbers. It takes away their credibility.
Darian, Toronto Ontario
06/18/10 3:54 PM EST
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Activists Can (and Will!) Party Too!
I can guarantee you that many queer activists will be partying and having a fun and amazing week, one that will resonate for many many years. They'll be celebrating Pride by remembering those who came before them and celebrating the positive changes they see for the future. I haven't been to a pride march since 1998 and I am incredibly excited to march this year with the Pride Coalition for Free Speech because finally the Pride March has meaning again. Celebrating Gay Rights and fighting for Social Justice around the world go hand in hand. It would be incredibly arrogant and nationalistic for Gay Canadians to celebrate all we have while our brothers and sisters suffer around the world. We cannot be silenced now by censors.
J Roman, Toronto ON
06/18/10 3:57 PM EST
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Ironic
Hmmmmmm, free speech, eh? I spoke to a group of QuAIA protesters last year. I did not carry a sign. I did not shout any slogans. I simply asked a few questions about the conflict in Israel and what they were fighting for. Well, I tried to ask a couple questions. They started shouting me down. Told me to shut up and get out of 'their space.' Guess free speech only matters to them when they have something to say.
Trent W, Toronto ON
06/18/10 4:00 PM EST
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re: Be careful what you read
Who are you referring to Darian? I have also been closely following these comments section discussions and I haven't seen two writing styles that seemed to be from the same person yet, I've heard ad nauseum the same name calling from those happy to see QuAIA censored but that's about it and the same sort of misinformation being spread too. There has been one free speech advocate/QuAIA supporter who acknowledged she used two different names on here but she never did so at the same time or on the same day, she used one name for a while then switched to another one and frankly hasn't been heard from in some time. So Darian since you say you know there have been free speech advocates and/or QuAIA defenders/supporters using multiple names to make it seem as if more people are against censorship point them out to the rest of us as well as why you think they are the same person. If you can't do that you might as well just admit you're just spreading some more misinformation and trying to discredit those against censorship. Frankly I'm utterly amazed at the numbers who do support censorship but then again there are many folks who believe something is right or wrong simply because someone in a position of power says its right or wrong as if thinking for yourself has gone out of style or that hearing both sides and then deciding for yourself is just too much effort for some. I guess there are those too who just don't want to make any waves no matter what's being done to them or their community and then get upset at those who are making waves for change. I don't know but I do know that we risk so much by going down this path of censorship, it legitimizes silencing unpopular political speech which is very dangerous to our society and the protection of our rights in the future.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/18/10 5:31 PM EST
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Doug's speech
Doug was trying to hit a conciliatory tone and that is never easy. Obviously his sympathy in this debacle is with big business. He made one key point: "Any community organization that needs to raise serious money has to look to business and government, and that means accepting the restrictions and accountability that inevitably accompany those funds". Harsh but true. We are at a crossroad. We either retain our treasured indipendence that has led us to undeniable success or, learn to adapt to the muzzle. The choice is ours. This whole kerfuffle is about money and comformance.
JG, Toronto ON
06/18/10 5:44 PM EST
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re: Get off my lawn!
Rand I'm also a sad and angry man, sad that this is happening to our community and angry at those who have done this to our community. Being sad and angry is a part of the emotional range of healthy individuals. Do you have trouble with your emotions Rand? are you not capable of being either sad or angry? or are you just ageist and think older gays, lesbians, and trans folks should just shut up and be invisible? Personally I think Peter Bochove's post was one of the more positive and forward looking ones I've read and don't see what you're talking about. I have no idea if he's an older man but I gather he's no twink at least. Besides older LGBT folks are the ones who made this community what it is, they're the trail blazers who created a safe space for us back when all of society was extremely anti-gay and if gay men were depicted in the media at all it was only as sexual monsters, predators and child molesters. Just being yourself back then took immense courage and integrity, we owe a debt of gratitude to all of the older LGBT folks who fought so hard to create this society we live in now where we have it so easy as younger LGBT folks compared to what they had to go through. Just in my lifetime, I'm barely middle aged, there has been immense progress, growing up I never in my wildest dreams thought LGBT folks would ever not be despised by pretty much everyone, be able to join the military, or to get married, the concept of same sex marriage never even occurred to me, the thought of it would have been like something out of a sci-fi novel. Anyways my point being older LGBT folks have earned our respect and I for one am very grateful that they're still contributing to the community and not just leaving it up to younger folks, we need their experience and integrity now more than ever.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/18/10 6:45 PM EST
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re: Be careful what you read
Case in point: one of the most outspoken on other articles re QuAIA (though apparently missing from this one since being called out) would be Tam aka zeze. So don't play games when you even commented when someone called this guy out. It is always interesting (and disappointing) that when people have a different point of view from you you resort to name calling, question their intelligence. You seem unable and unwilling to stand by your position based simple on the merits of your POV. I have never called anyone supporting the QuAIA names, nor do I think it constructive to do so. I disagree with them but I don't doubt their sincerity on the issue. But those of you fighting on their side are the quickest to use insult to promote your point.
Darian, Toronto Ontario
06/18/10 7:17 PM EST
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re: JG
I don't believe that corporate sponsors really want to muzzle Pride, they haven't done so yet anyways, I think some became concerned because of the actions of Gladstone and his ilk, especially TD who was apparently contacting pride participants and asking them about QuAIA but I do believe that without an organized campaign from a 3rd party trying to silence a particular group that most corporations would not insist on dictating who can participate and who cannot. There may be some other issues related to their marketing that they might insist on and that's fine as far as that goes. I do believe that we will win this fight and that censorship won't be rearing its ugly head at Pride ever again and that the right of free expression will be respected in the future, at least eventually, I think that once this controversy dies down so will the concerns of the sponsors. There may be other attempts in the future at censoring or banning certain groups but I think once we've won this one the forces of censorship will be seriously weakened and won't pose such a threat to Pride. I guess I'm being optimistic since I'm totally convinced we're on the right side of this issue and that freedom will always win out over any sort of oppression in the long run. I believe that most corporate sponsors realize how special Pride is, that it isn't like any other event in this city and part of what makes it special is its inclusive and political nature mixed thoroughly with partying and having a good time. Maybe I'm too optimistic but oh well.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/18/10 7:25 PM EST
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re: Be careful what you read
Darian that's one and she admitted she has used different names, but she never used them on the same comment section or on the same day, except for the day she brought it up and then she signed off with both names at the same time. No one called her out on it either, she was the one who brought it up besides if I recall she only used the name Tam for a couple of days at most and hasn't been heard from since so hardly a case of trying to make it seem as if more people were supportive of free speech than really are. Besides you said there were a few of them, who are the rest? Darian this is the first time I've heard that name being used yet you seem to be saying you've been commenting in these sections for some time, what name were you using before? I have hardly ever resorted to name calling btw but yes I have questioned the intelligence of a certain poster and I wasn't the only one who did so, it was/is questionable. There has been so much more name calling and insults coming from the anti-free speech side, just check out some of their comments in this thread alone, they're filled with name calling and insults just like the vast majority of the pro-censorship side since they have no rational argument to make based on facts and reality. Actually there was one and only one poster who made an argument supporting censorship that I thought was based on reason though I disagreed totally with them. Besides what about the smear campaign against QuAIA, that was filled with personal attacks, name calling and insults, mixed in with a lot of lies too. Its a ridiculous claim that the free speech side has been resorting to more name calling than the pro-censorship side, demonizing QuAIA and free speech advocates is the entire basis of their justification to support censorship, otherwise they'd have to admit they just don't agree with them and that's no justification for censorship. Don't forget to let us know who else has been using multiple names, I want to know.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/18/10 8:30 PM EST
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@Rich
It very much depends on the 3rd party and what power it wields. In our case the 3rd party is not just Gladstone but also a conservative government that has alligned itself blindly with Israel. It is not by chance that Navigator is in the background making sure that Pride is devoid of any political message that is not favourable to the government's agenda. Corporations do not like to alienate government on somenthing that they consider marginal and does not affect their bottom line. That is when they will pressure the organizer to please government. Notice Doug's statement was precisely worded and points at corporations as well as government. Add to this, an increasing number of gay conservatives who resent diversity and are very supportive of the theocons and you have a divided house. That is what I meant by muzzle. We are not unique, the same has happened to the women's and black civil right movement in the US. What has happened with QuAIA is just a symptom of a "gay" existential crisis. The gay movement in Canada is/was one of the few indipendent voices remaining, beholden to no one; but what major goal remains that unify us anymore? We have won all the major battles. The rest is more about individual political belief. I was talking with a sane gay man who is in full support of Rob Ford today and I wondered if we had the same sexual orientation. Nevertheless change is not only good but also inevitable. Cheers!
JG, Toronto ON
06/18/10 8:57 PM EST
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Pride Lost
How dare you Pride destroyers claim you love Pride. If this year is anything like last year, over 7,000 members of our gay community, and supporters, will march in what should be the one of the best parades in the world. And you'll be crashing through their delegations? Tell me I'm misunderstanding the plan.
BJ, Toronto ON
06/18/10 11:46 PM EST
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stupidity
Darian, I don't just call anyone stupid, they really have to show it and Peter, who is the only person I called stupid, is really stupid. If there wasn't proof enough on everything he said, I wouldn't say it. That said, I do think that pro-Israel propaganda has made a lot of people who would otherwise act as intelligent people become slightly stupid. They have heard the same stupid arguments for years and they have not thought about them. For example, there were no arabs in palestine... sure... they were everywehre, but not in palestine... that doesn't make any sense, does it? It is just stupid. There is no way around it. If you think god prevented people in the area from settling in what is now Israel and Palestine over 2000 years, you have to be an idiot. There isn't much more to argue there. If you think you have proof that your ancestors lived there 2000 years ago but you can't imagine that palestinians had ancestors, maybe even jewish ones, who lived there 2000 years ago, then you have to be an idiot. No way to go about that. There is simply no proof that they are more from there than others. If you think that it is ok to take land from people who escaped a war, then you are an idiot. There is no going about that. People leave war zones all the time to protect their well being and that of their children. Their leaving doesn't imply anything more than that. There are even people who are very brainwashed but show excellent argumentative skills, I wouldn't call them idiots, but some... just are idiots. It is simple, basic logic, ... hey, I am willing to accept the possibility that they are just lazy and don't like to think... if they just weren't so rabid about their opinions. Either do the mental work or... spare me.
Tam Zezi, Toronto Ontario
06/18/10 11:59 PM EST
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Re: zezi or Tam or ???
First, by writing 'Tam Zezi' for that last post as a way of justifying the use of different names when you commented on earlier articles is very transparent. You always posted under Tam and then were caught responding to someone as Zezi. Why you would choose to change the name you use when making comments is questionable at the very least. How many other aliases do you use? next you will be signing off as Tam Rich Zezi. Why would you consistently use just your first name, then suddenly or accidentally start using your last name (and now your 'full' name) unless you were playing games? Second, you accuse one side of being 'rabid about their opinions.' Both sides have been. Look at posts from the pro-QuAIA side and the anti-QuAIA side. You can find varying degrees of intolerance and thoughtfulness from both. You then say you only called one person stupid, but then go on a lengthy diatribe calling out anyone with a differing opinion as being stupid or an idiot.
Darian, Toronto Ontario
06/19/10 12:40 AM EST
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PnP or. . . ?
seems you can tell if someone wants to just party&pose or stand up for their rights by their use of the term 'parade' or march.' i have to say the 'parade' folks seem to just whine and bash while the 'march' folks are trying to relate actual cultural messages (yes, very generalized). personally i believe it should be both! hope yours is better than the huge drunk assimilation party nyc has!
eddie, new york new york
06/19/10 7:26 PM EST
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@JG
What's even more astonishing is that there are social conservative LGBT folks! well I've only ever heard from social conservative gay men, 2 of them to be exact, but I suppose if they can go that route then probably some lesbians, bi and trans folks do too. That's one thing I'll never understand, why get in bed with those trying to take away your rights? The so cons are as anti-gay as it gets yet some gay guys identify with them, I figure it must have something to do with internalized homophobia but they are out, at least in comments section such as this but that doesn't mean much due to it being anonymous, which is a shame because I'd like to chat more with some of the folks posting here, anyways if they were out with their fellow so cons then that would be something, well they'd kick them out of the club if they knew they were gay. Baird only gets away with it because there are some remnants of the PC party in the new Cons and the new Cons aren't all so cons though they represent a big chunk of their base it seems. Municipally I tend to think that regardless of your orientation if your going to vote for Ford then you're too stupid to vote but especially if you're LGBT considering he didn't think it worth spending any public money to try and save the lives of gay men, here's some of his other "famous" quotes http://www.xtra.ca/public/Toronto/Lets_get_rid_of_Rob_Ford-1968.aspx But hey everyone gets to vote whether they've put any serious thought into it or not. I just don't believe he'll win, I guess I have faith in most of the people of Toronto. He's tied for lead now or slightly ahead but the vast majority of folks are still undecided so that doesn't mean much. Anyways have a good one!
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/19/10 8:23 PM EST
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@ eddie
Its actually somewhat comforting to know things are similar in NY where it all started 40 years ago. I still don't get what people have against having an inclusive parade/march, I use the words fairly interchangeably since parts are definitely a parade while parts are definitely a march but it is definitely tending towards parade since all those so afraid to upset the hetero community are doing their best to stifle anything even slightly controversial or "scandalous". With each passing year I'm more and more grateful for the nudists who march, they're keeping it real and forcing us to think about how we view our own bodies, Pride should challenge us all I believe. Mind you this whole debacle has renewed my faith in most of the LGBT community here because we aren't going to take this attack on our right of free speech laying down, its re-energized people and forced them to think about what Pride is all about, there are many different answers but at least its being talked about openly and I do believe the community will regain control of its Pride once again. I hope you find some aspect of NY's Pride that you're able to enjoy, have a good one!
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/19/10 8:36 PM EST
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@ Rich
Unfortunately there is a real backlash against Miller and if voter turnout is low we are screwed. Check this one out, the formidable duo in action: http://www.youtube.com/watchv=z8EpSdyB0zY
JG, Toronto ON
06/19/10 9:20 PM EST
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Testy queers -- it's not about free speech
I must say, some of these posts are incredibly naive and insipid. Here are some thoughts: QUAIA demonizes Israel, and in turn, is anti-semitic. In addition, you could have a Pride parade in Israel, but you couldn't have a Pride parade in any other Middle Eastern state (such as the one that the QUAIA is getting antsy about) -- or you would be shot. But, some misguided queers in Toronto want to save the homophobic cultures -- following that lack of logic, what's next: "Queers United Against Women Who Eat Pussy" or "Queers United Against Men Who Bottom"? To argue that "free speech," in this context, is being violated is quite specious -- as an analogy, it's like listening to Fred Phelps whine about his "free speech" writes when making up his "God Hates Fags" posters. The attempt to run counter-Pride parades is silly, and ultimately indicative of how good we have it in Canada, but don't even seem to know. Sad for us -- why not focus this energy into working on/for international gay and lesbian rights?! And finally, in regard to that stunning quote: "We're taking back our fucking march." -- is that any way for a lady to talk?! Happy Pride!
TuBu, toronto ontario
06/19/10 9:47 PM EST
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@ JG
I tried the link but it said page could not be found, has it moved maybe?
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/19/10 11:01 PM EST
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re: Testy queers -- it's not about free speech
TuBu how about some evidence of anti-semitism, you claim repeatedly that they're anti-semitic but you never provide any examples. QuAIA is made up of a wide range of folks, many of whom are Jewish and/or from Israel/Palestine, I don't see how they'd allow any of their members to be anti-semitic but you say you know better so please educate us all. Also please point out some non-homophobic cultures around the world because I can't think of any, some are less so than others but even here in Canada where we, except for trans folks, have full legal equality still live in a society where gay bashings happen all the time and outside of relatively small areas of our larger cities same sex couples can't even hold hands without attracting unpleasant attention, many LGBT folks are still ostracized when out at work or in their neighbourhoods. Yes we have it better here but we still live in a homophobic culture, granted it is changing and maybe in a couple generations, who knows. Btw that may not be any way for a lady to talk but it is proper talk for a woman. Here are some links that will help you understand the positions of QuAIA and free speech advocates, you don't need to support QuAIA's politics to support their right to free expression, many folks opposing this censorship don't agree with QuAIA's politics yet they're willing to fight for their right of free expression since they understand just how important and vital that right is to all of us whether we realize it or not, anyways here are the links, please read them. 1) http://dissidentvoice.org/2010/03/israel-and-apartheid-is-it-a-fair-comparison/#footnote_2_14548 2) http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=130358773660062 3) http://www.facebook.com/notes/pride-coalition-for-free-speech/my-intended-city-executive-committee-deputation-elle-flanders/130396026989670 4) http://www.facebook.com/notes/pride-coalition-for-free-speech/pcfs-legal-submission-by-zahra-dhanani-llb-llm/130378003658139
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/19/10 11:17 PM EST
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Pride is about celebration
Pride, at least as I understand it, is about celebration. Yes, that celebration was in the past often defiant and political, but it was still a celebration. The group QuAIA has tried to use this celebration to shove their specific opinion in everyones face (an opinion which I, and likely many others do not necesarily disagree with). Pride Toronto said "hey, lets try and keep this civil, everyone should feel welcome, not threatened, etc" and suddenly its about freedom of speech, rights and all that jazz. Go back to Stonewall and what that was all about, how does QuAIA fit into that? It doesn't. Pride Toronto has every right to organize a pride where the debate is kept respectful, and where the focus is on celebration rather than on promoting some militant, peripheral political opinion.
Jer, Calgary (formerly of Toronto) Alberta
06/20/10 3:23 AM EST
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@Rich
Sorry Rich for some reason I can't seem to get the link right. If you search for the title "Councillor Rob Ford in action" in YouTube you will locate it easily. Is good for a laugh. Cheers.
JG, Toronto ON
06/20/10 6:41 AM EST
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@ Jer
The Stonewall Riot started on the backs of working-class African-American and Latino transgender patrons of a targeted bar. Do you think when they rebelled they were only concerned with "queer" issues and had suppressed their ethnicity that day? Do you think that racism was not a factor in the actions of the police and their response to it? QuAIA platform fits into 2010 Pride the same way racism and oppression fit in Stonewall. The only question remaining:is QuAIA's message one of hate? Nobody, (including the city of Edmonton where they have peacefully marched) has been able to prove it. You have to look into who is attempting to silence them in Toronto for answers. You are right, Pride is a celebration. My Pride however, is a celebration of defiance.
JG, Toronto ON
06/20/10 7:27 AM EST
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Israelis for free speech
We are for palestinian rights. We are against being mislabeled and regarded as racists. Similar to a group marching under the banner "queers against white racists", why not be against all racists? Why is this group not fighting against apartheid in syria/saudi arabia / pakistan / iraq / lebanon. I am not allowed to go there!
matan, toronto ontario
06/20/10 9:20 AM EST
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@Matan
If a queer group wanted to participate and was called "Queers Against Saudi/Pakistani/Syrian/Russian/Ugandan/Chinese Racism" they would and should be allowed to participate. QuAIA or any other queer advocacy group is not obligated to incorporate a balanced point of view to be allowed to march. Until evidence is provided that they are engaging in hate speech (nobody has so far), they are an advocacy group expressing a political view, and as such they should not be censored. If Toronto Pride only shows care for queer issues that pertain to anglo-saxon queer males and their friends, it should openly declare it instead of falsely advertising its diversity. Some of us come to the queer family, to celebrate and as well seek support for the other injustices that may be hanging over our heads. Do not relegate us to further invisibility; that is not what Stonewall was about. Matan we are all fighting for everyone to be able to go anywhere and feel welcome.
JG, Toronto ON
06/20/10 11:11 AM EST
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Free Speech
At the end of the day, the salient issue is what should the bar be for banning a group from marching in the parade. I am not a fan of QuAIA and even less so of the people in it, most of whom espouse a fairly radical POV on many things. But that personal distaste is not a high enough bar to ban them all together. QuAIA is not hate speech, and unless Pride bars groups that carry a political message all together, banning them is unjustified. If they had just let them march this would never have blown up into the issue it is. Funding is another issue, but to be honest, it is not hundreds of thousands of dollars that should make Pride what it is. And if that all Pride is, a big dance party, it's worth taking another look at if we're doing it the right way.
JD, Toronto Ontario
06/20/10 8:07 PM EST
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The real haters/racists
The real haters and racists are to be found within the Israel Lobby. When you support an apartheid regime, you are hateful and racist. Plain and simple.
Rick, London Ontario
06/21/10 4:09 AM EST
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Rick up to his old cards again
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH So I guess it does take one to know one then?
Peter From, Toronto ON
06/21/10 2:51 PM EST
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Great Idea- kill Pride for next year
QuAIA already cost Pride toronto $300,000 in sponsorships. So go ahead, be sucks and prove how your hateful message is more important than Pride. Because you can be sure, if this thing turns into a big hate-Israel fest, next year no major sponsor is going to want to touch Pride with a 100 foot pole. QuAIA and the self-important activists supported by Xtra have already harmed Pride substantially. Now they want to plunge the knife right in.
Norm, Toronto Ontario
06/22/10 1:33 AM EST
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Just wondering
Do we go on the website of the local London rag and tell Londoners how to run their Pride? Didn't think so. Anyway, those who say they're taking back "our Pride" you might want to define who the "our" is you speak for. There are a whole lot of "our(s)" out there. And I doubt very much you speak for them all. Maybe get just a little less proprietary about Pride ownership. There's already been some problems with that attitude. It doesn't 'belong' to anyone. If you don't like the way it's been run, then run for the board. Seriously. Just do it.
Alex, Toronto ON
06/22/10 4:10 AM EST
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Socialistic Agenda against Israel
I found it interesting that here is the States, and elsewhere... that socialist are gaining important leadership rolls in many gay organizations... and most often using anti-Israeli or anti-Semitic language in their pro-Palestinian stance. I find it ironic... that in Arab countries... how many have gay Pride Parades... none! Some Arab countries put to death by hanging in public squares, teen-agers who commit gay acts. Palestine was offered Statehood, at the same time Israel was in 1947 by the U.N., but choose not to accept it and joined 5 Arab States invading the new State of Israel .The Arabs lost that war and 2 more. The same Palestinians were kicked out of Jordan and Lebonan . They have been used as pawns and kept in detention camps... not by Israel, but by Arab leaders, who have turned down peace. Israel is the only Democratic country in the mid-east. These same gays who call the use of FREE SPEECH, will not find FREE SPEECH in the Arab states they are defending. Those few... will rather ruin the whole concept of Gay Pride, for their own selfish socialistic views... Thank you, Gay Toronto for not buckling down to them and have a great Pride Parade!
Jerry Pritikin, chicago Illinois
06/22/10 7:35 AM EST
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Tough choice
I wonder if the now defunct South Africa's white apartheid regime had been queer friendly and allowed Gay Pride parades, would the gay community have supported the racist administration? The South African argument would have been: we are the only gay friendly nation in Africa and our racist policy is only so that we can protect ourselves from a hostile continent. I like to think that we may have recognized their enlightened gay positive attidutes and severely condemned the odious rest. But then again maybe not...
JG, Toronto ON
06/22/10 9:47 AM EST
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I dumped zezi
and came back as Tam.. I got every right to change my nick whenever I want. Your point is? I just happened to use one computer that had my last nick in its memory. As far as intolerance from the pro-QuAIA side, I am intolerant only of those people who are intolerant. Basically put, I have nothing to gain personally from having anyone murdered or from ignoring anyone being murdered. I am as unbiased as you can be. I am just a regular human being tired of what Israel does. For years Israel has prevented crayons from entering Gaza, does that seem to you like a bunch of peace loving people? Who does that? No crayons, no children's shoes. They killed 1,400 people they didn't have to kill. They signed a ceasefire with hamas that included lifting the blockade and they didn't do it. They were offerend a comprehensive peace plan by every arab nation and they said no. They bombed much of Lebanon to the ground for a small incident that doesn't compare to the many incidents in which they are aggressors. None of these things made any sense. They only made more enemies, they never got what they wanted, they just murdered a whole bunch of people including many many children. When a kid throws a rock at them he is dangerous, when a jewish person does, they aren't so dangenours after all. I have been following the situation for a very long time and Israel's behaviour is disgusting and racist. Israel has it on itself to de-escalate the conflict, but it choses not to. It only makes things worse and it continues to steal land. And, it lies to the world at every opportunity. I am tired of Israel. There is no intolerance of a race or religion here, I am intolerant of people who ara racist, who are liars, who are stealing. I have yet to hear a racist thing from anyone from QuAIA.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/22/10 4:09 PM EST
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Tam
Tam, regarding your comment about "Israel, being liars, theives,murders etc. No wonder Quaia dont need to make racist remarks, they have followers like you to do it for them. You are under a great misconception about Criticizing Israel, is not the same thing as targeting their citizens, many Jewish people who vote in that goverment to protect Israeli citizens from terrorists attack. To declare that one terrorist attack isnt so bad because it only likked 14 people, compared to retaliation that kills a thousand, is naive. Excessive force is needed when a few hundred etremist murders, are moving through the whole palestian population using their own as human sheilds. If you throw a dozen of rocks at me , the police would come on the scene Armed, and threaten you until you put down your weapon, even if it was rocks. The moral of the story is, dont throw rocks at jewish citizens, including children and elderly people in Israel. By the way, Crayons are allowed in Gaza, but palestian s would rather teach their children to throw rocks at people, rather then colour.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
06/22/10 5:30 PM EST
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@ Jamie
I don't know abut crayons but they don't allow children's toys into Gaza, or musical instruments, or sage, nutmeg, chocolate, fresh meat, nuts, dried fruit and the list goes and on. Its very well documented that they're only allowed enough food to keep them alive but not anything they might enjoy. Here's a partial list of what is and what isn't allowed into Gaza http://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenMessages/ItemsGazaStrip060510.pdf Some of that may have changed after the flotilla incident, they announced they would ease some of the restrictions. According to an Israeli official (I forget whom) they've put the people in Gaza on a "diet". That is collective punishment and its against international law. There also many on the right calling for Israel to ethnically cleanse the West Bank, except they call it relocation. It seems to have started with their new "infiltrator" laws through which they've started deporting or jailing Palestinians without an identity card issued by Israel saying they can stay in the West Bank, even if they were born in the West Bank, thing is they stopped issuing those cards in 2000 and Palestinians do have the right of free movement within their land (WB/Gaza) according to international law but this new law is denying them their right to live where they want in their own land. http://www.gisha.org/index.php?intLanguage=2&intItemId=1777&intSiteSN=113 Israel on its current trajectory is heading down a path towards major crimes against humanity. No one wants to see Israel lumped together with Rwanda, former Yugoslavia, Turkey even nazi Germany as perpetrators of genocide (ethnic cleansing is considered genocide). That's why QuAIA and others who care are trying to get them off this path they're on before they commit a genocide even if it isn't as brutal as what the nazis did, most genocides aren't. Some of the preconditions for genocide are present in Israel already, another major incident could set it off just like
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/22/10 7:06 PM EST
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@ Rich So what
and the United States does the same to Cuba so what is your point? and that has been going on for nearly 50 years and the UN has even view it as illegal and yet the USA gets away with it and the say they are a liberal democracy. Your lack of knowledge about anything in the World just amazes me but I think it must be Israel's fault too. Also according to International Law a Naval Blockades are legal and if Israel was committing ethic cleansing then they are going rather slow unlike Nazi Germany, Rwanda, former Yugoslavia, Turkey
Peter from, Toronto ON
06/22/10 7:38 PM EST
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@Rich
I dare you to enter the United States illegally and see what happens to you, I bet you would get deported and if someone entered Canada illegally they will also get deported. Is Canada or the United States racist for deporting people who enter their countries illegally? Funny how Canada and the United States do have similar law such as the infiltrator laws. So I dare you to enter the United States illegally and I wonder what American Law enforcement would do? That law is no different.
Peter from, Toronto ON
06/22/10 7:49 PM EST
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cont'd from above
... another major incident could set it off just like Turkey with the Armenians, Turkey has always claimed it was just a war, not genocide but according to the internationally agreed upon definition of genocide it was a genocide committed during a war. The optimist in me doubts Israel will ever sink to that level despite the calls of some on the right to "transfer" all Palestinians out of the West Bank, don't believe me? here are some links I found, there is wide spread condemnation of these proposals in Israel from Israelis but supporters of the idea of "transfers" are growing in number, especially amongst the younger generation and the religious, here are the links: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10522.htm http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=28900 http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000569 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/transfer-made-easy.htm http://www.counterpunch.org/youmans1009.html http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=952 http://www.promisedlandblog.com/?tag=kahana http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2010/04/prelude-to-transfer-military-orders.html and here's one from a major proponent of "transfers" who is mostly discredited in Israel though his ideas live on and he has his followers http://www.masada2000.org/kahane.html All it would take for Israel to sink to this level is some major incident of violence and the rise of followers of this belief to political power. It is important to note that most Israelis are opposed to such ideas but a significant proportion do support them, it is an issue for concern and casts a different light on many of the Israeli policies concerning the Palestinians. Here's another link talking about the concern of left leaning Israelis over the direction their state is taking http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/one-racist-nation-1.183706 there were more like this one but they all said pretty much the same thing and were easier to believe that the
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/22/10 8:38 PM EST
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@ Peter
Peter I never said Israel was conducting ethnic cleansing, I said the potential was there for it to happen and in light of that the "infiltrator" laws look like they might be starting it to some degree. Those laws are not analogous to entering the US or Canada illegally since the Palestinians are already in their homeland. A better analogy would be if Canada were forcing french speaking Canadians from other parts of Canada to live in Quebec only, regardless if they were born in a different province or not, unless they had special permission from Ottawa to live in those other provinces. Even that is a weak analogy but much better than one about illegal immigration, the Palestinians didn't immigrate there, they were born there or moved there from Gaza, a different area of their land. Read the links I provided or search it out for yourself online. While you're at it search out the pre-conditions for genocide, I studied genocide in university, I don't remember everything from that course but I do remember enough to know that some of the pre-conditions for genocide are present in Israel at this time, not all of them but enough to cause concern. I don't actually believe Israel will sink to that level for two reasons I believe there are enough Israelis opposed to such an action to block it from happening and that the US would intervene before then since it would be a major blow to their strategic interests in the region if something like that ever happened. My whole point is that Israel is not the squeaky clean and innocent state its so often made out to be, we hear constantly about how Palestinians are terrorists, anti-semitic, want to wipe Israel off the map, well there are elements on both sides who want the same thing except we never ever hear about it on the Israeli side and in the case of Pride we're forbidden to even mention it.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/22/10 8:56 PM EST
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jamie
I can prove everything I said. There is nothing racist about it. The Israeli government does this and condones these acts from its citizens. Israel isn't the first country to act like this, that they are mostly jewish is irrelevant. In fact, Spain stole land from Jews, from Muslims, from Indigenous people in the late XV and XVI century. I have nothing against the Spanish peope either. Except, perhaps, those who were at the forefront of perpetrating these crimes against humanity. If you want proof of anything I said, just let me know and I'll post it here with Israeli sources, of course, so you don't think I am bias.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/22/10 9:00 PM EST
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@Rich Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah
Rich again your very very wrong. Yes in reality they are no different then what Canada or even the United States have. Even if Canadians entered Canada illegally like not going through a controlled border crossing you will still be punish by Canadian immigration laws even if you are Canadian, and the same applies to American if they did the same entering the United States. Also in PEI for example you just can't move there if you choose too. In PEI, for example they do have laws on who can live there and non residents(from outside of the province) need permission by the government to live there and also they have to have a reason why they are moving to PEI and also PEI does have laws of non-residents from owning land or even shorelines . As you say Canada does not have similar laws but of course we do and I wonder are the laws on PEI racist? I really doubt they are design to control population. So I guess your wrong again when since Canada and other Provinces do have similar laws in place. Oh well tell you this is like saying that Santa does not exist.
Peter from, Toronto ON
06/22/10 9:11 PM EST
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@ Tam
So let me guess were those sources will come from? I certain blog? I really doubt blogs can be considered sources
Peter from, Toronto ON
06/22/10 9:16 PM EST
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Don't feed...
Some advice for dealing with "Peter": http://tinyurl.com/338dw9g
Good advice, Toronto Ontario
06/23/10 12:06 AM EST
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Really Good Advice
Funny how you don't like debate or freedom of Speech or even how you like to censor. Are the censored becoming the censorship kind of like the Gaza Strip Club? In other words its ok for you to censor people but not ok for others to the same. This is too funny. Freedom of Speech is only for you and not for others? Your not go to silence your opposition, this is a democracy after all, don't like it, of course you don't but it is a two way street and will never be a one way street.
Peter From, Toronto ON
06/23/10 12:32 AM EST
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Rich
Rich, for someone who is new to the whole Quaia, you sure are claiming to be a resource for acurate historical fact. You are so far off politically and legally concerning Israel, it is not even worth engaging. You are trying to rewrite history and how the need for Israel to protect their citizens. For me, and I hope for others, the moment you accuse Israel of ethnic cleansing , and compare it to Germany, that is procisely why there is another side to freedom of speech. If you demonize anyone, you are creating hate towards a people and a nation. Thats it. I think I will go outside and based on what you are saying about Israeli citizens condoning genocide, I will take the extreme opposing side, which is Palestinians, the arab league of nations, and muslims, and Islamists support your believe, their for they condone your destruction of Israel and the citizen that support the country's right to defend themselves. As you speak for the oppressed, you are oppressing, and since behavior is contagious, I will call those that you claim are being persecuted by Israel, Terrorists. Thanks for educating me Rich! Your a good man haha, you have succeeded in making take a stronger stand for Israel, their citizens. A big thank you from Jews everywhere. We know where we stand. You confirmed you are a newbie and a self confessed Quaia supporter.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
06/23/10 12:43 AM EST
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@Jamie,
I could agree more and very well said
Peter from, Toronto ON
06/23/10 2:25 AM EST
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Peter... a lesson on sources
Peter, my sources will be haaretz and other international news sources like the bbc and in some cases I have even used israeli government statistics. Just tell me what you want me to prove and I'll show you my sources. It depends on the question, of course. So, try me. Nothing better than posting information about what the blockade has been like ... I can, for example, show you a haaretz article in which they congratulated themselves (the israeli government) because they were allowing a few truck loads of children's clothes and shoes after 3 years of preventing them from entering the gaza strip. It was a one time thing, but I am sure they felt like they were being really kind, which shows me that those making the decisions have some twisted logic as to what is acceptable and what is not, and what is being generous and what is simply a crime, and if they can act like that towards children, I certainly wouldn't want them near mine.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/23/10 11:39 AM EST
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Jamie
He made a comparison with Turkey too, what Rich is doing, and it is going beyond you, is to explain that these are processes in society, racist processes, that can lead to the kind of human disaster like the one in Germany. Many germans were just nice people who didn't know, who didn't bother to know, who were horrified. They are guilty of that and the country has accepted its responsibility. Hardly do you see a country that can look back so honestly about what happen and be sorry. You might think that Germany is the one criminal in the world and no one should compare to them, but people have been doing things like these in different scales throughout the world. It starts with thinking it is ok to treat people who aren't like you as subhuman. And, the Gaza war photos are certainly showing that to me. Do you think if it had been the catholics who had taken over half of palestine the palestinians would have said, oh, great, and not fought. If you think they would have fought, then the issue did not arise from anti-semitism, the conflict arose from a terrible injustice perpetrated against the palestinians.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/23/10 11:53 AM EST
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Tam
Tam, There you go making generalizations again. I work from a place of first hand experience. My best friends mother is a holocaust survivor and many people in her citizen watched the day she and her family were arrested. She was 15 years at the time, and just before her family was murdered her mother told her they were arrested because the crime they were accused of was being born jewish. It took Hundreds of thousands of protesters all through Europe to voluntarily join the 'fight" to exterminate the race so not one living jew would be born agin into the world. My friends mother was tortured for 3 years in dachau, to be liberated and alone in this world as a young women, with her whole family murdered 60 years ago. She witnessed thousands from all countries take part in the nazi regime. You didnt have to be German. In Hungary they were putting stars of david on children going to public school to separate them from other children, 8 years before they were taken away. So, when me and my friend hear Rich or you make comparisons to genocide anywhere, dont waste your breath on many in the city here who no how anti semetism starts, by twisting facts. Do more research Tam, the gaza photos may be terrible, but so is the bus blown up with innocent jewish citizens going to work. Or the market in Jerusalem when a palestian crossed over to blow up, murder as many jewish citizens as he could. Or the nursery school that was hit with daily barrages of qusam rockets that terrorized and killed many children before Israeli put up the security wall. The terrorist attacks dropped by more then 60%. The Palestians Through out history stole land, took part in wars to try and annialate Jews, and all they did was win there right back through war to exist there too. get your facts straight. A great Israeli Statesman by the name Abba Eban once said, Men and nations may start to act wisely after they have exhausted all other alternatives.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
06/23/10 4:41 PM EST
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Abba Eban
On a week-long visit to South Africa (in the '80s) as guest of the Israel United Appeal (IUA),Abba Eban, Israel's former foreign minister, noted that "the Israel government need not necessarily agree with South Africa's internal policies to maintain diplomatic and trade links." This before he proceeded to sell white South Africa arms. Abba Eban seemed not to have any concern for the oppressed black South Africans with a population of only 1.5% muslims, and as far as I know, with no history of ever harming people of the Jewish faith. Great stateman, perhaps; principled not so much.... and very much a friend of racists. Go figure.
JG, Toronto ON
06/23/10 5:19 PM EST
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Tam defending Rich
According to your post Tam, you are suggesting that many in Germany, did not know that hundreds of Thousands of their citizens, all being Jewish were being arrested and taken away. Please, the only way to justified they were afraid is to say the didn't know. You also are suggesting that minoritys and palestians are innocent victims of war crimes. many in our canadian prisons are pleading innoncence and no such knowledge to crimes they have commited too. One could say we dont trust a murder in Prison here, where he is considered sub human for his crimes. If he threaten citizens and stood behind innocent people he puts them in danger. Pictures you see, is terrorists that spread out amonst the civilian population right after the attacked israel , knowing Israel needed to retaliate for crimes against its population. War is sad and ugly with little justice. The innoncent people of Gaza need to mobilize with Quaias help, and take there agreesion on ridding their land of the guilty terrorists that put them in harms way.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
06/23/10 5:25 PM EST
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Jamie
I did not say they didn't know they were taken away. Taken away, as terrible as it is, is no different than what happened in many other countries where people for whatever reason were taken away while their neighbours watched. What happened in the concentration camps, they didn't know. Jamie, you are saying that palestinian children are guilty of something? That you can say that those 1.5 million people who find themselves in this situation because they are not jewish, because a crime was perpetrated against them in 1948 and many other crimes continue to be perpetrated against them, are all subhuman? That they deserve what the Israeli government does to them? Is that what you are saying? You know jamie, shooting someone in the face twice in Jerusalem because he run away from an accident is subhuman. It is what an Israeli officer just did to an arab who, by all accounts, was part of an accident. Shooting missiles at heavily populated areas is subhuman and the Israeli government did that. You want to go that way, there is nothing more criminal than the IDF in this conflict. They have killed more people, more children, than the palestinians. Many Many Many more... and what does a coward do? They hide in safety an push a botton that kills a few hundred people. That is a coward and that is an IDF officer. Those are individuals Jamie, who are subhuman, but I wouldn't say that this means it is ok to bomb civilians in Israel hoping to get one. That would be insanity. Do you remember this http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/aug2008/israeli_children_leaving_messages_on_missiles_meant_for_lebanon_in_keryatshmoun_a.jpg, Israeli children sending little messages on the missiles that were going to strike Lebanon? I think those parents should never had had children. How about the nice little boys of Hebron, did you miss that video of children throwing rocks at palestinains day in and day out, harrassing women....
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/23/10 5:36 PM EST
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About your first post Jamie
I would never say that the Holocaust was not horrible. It was disgusting. I still do believe it is a terrible manifestation of things that have happen all throughout the history of humanity. Why do you think Cortes, (who by the way some idiot has writetn a book saying he was Jewish as if that was something to be proud of), decided to mark the faces of indigenous people in the americas and enslave them? Because he thought they were just like him? Here we too are talking about 15 year olds. Why do you think that the women of Plaza de Mayo in Argentina continue to march, because the military came in in the middle of the night and took their children in front of everyone and killed them all. And the slave trade lasted centuries of putting human beings in chains and dragging them across the ocean, sometimes throwing them overboard en mass. The cronicles say they took indigenous people to mines under such bad conditions that you could walk through and see piles and piles of dead indians. I realize that the holocaust was disgusting, horrible, but I think that it happens all the time to different people and that for me, it is about preventing these things from happenning to anyone at any time in history and not waiting until they get that bad. Never again, to me, means never again to anyone under any circumstances. And, let me point out to you that people who run QuAIA are the kind of people that luckly we have every generation that would have stood out against the nazis too. You are blinded by hatred of the very people that were displaced to make room for your people. I also believe it was a crime to spell jewish people and muslims from spain. So, I am consistent in my believes and values. You would probably change sides if Gaza was full of Jewish people, that would be a crime no matter how many rockets they would send, I would be supporting their freedom.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/23/10 5:54 PM EST
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clarification
I re-read my post and just so there are no misunderstanding, a couple of jewish academics claimed Cortes, the conqueror of Mexico, was a jewish convert to christianity. There is little to no proof of that, but from the book, it would appear they wanted to claim this murdering bastard as their own. He never did anything I would ever be proud of. That was just an aside because it is soemthing that has always surprised me that anyone would claim this man, who liked to cut off the arms of people, as their own, with pride. The point remains Jamie, that I dislike genocide everywhere, even if it is done very slowly. I am neither muslim nor jewish and can honestly tell you that if the situations were reversed in the middle eastern conflict, I would support jewish people. My stance has nothing to do with the ethnic background of the parties, it has to do with my own morals and I am not going to put them on hold for anyone.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/23/10 6:12 PM EST
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Tam
Tam, last two posts are a cross between you not listening carefully to my point, and jumping all over incomplete things you read to try and twist what i am saying. I do not choose to be part of your propaganda. The best example in your most recent post actually says, " some idiot has writetn a book saying he was Jewish as if that was something to be proud of)" a quote of yours, you are saying to bad the holocaust happened, who would be proud to be Jewish anyway. Just look at your comment. You are trying to demonize Israel and the jewish people that dont share your opinion about Why the oppression is going on in gaza. You want to help that cause help them mobilize and crack down on the Palestian and Gazans that want to kill Israeli. To suggest I am saying innocent people caught in the cross fire is right, is twisting what I said in my previous post. I said terrorists should not attack Israel and then put then hide in the population of women and children, and expect that IDF can tell who is wearing the bomb, ready to blow them up, all because they went into Gaza trying to locate the terrorist. Tam, I wont be discussing or commenting on your or anothers post, when you keep this going by promoting lies against Queer Proud Jews, that are happy Israeli is trying to stop terrorists from trying to destroy the Jewish people there. Most Gazans elected Hamas to fight for the destruction of Israel. They have no desire for a peaceful two state solution. Maybe their nation will behave wisely after they have exhausted all other alternatives.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
06/23/10 6:12 PM EST
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Misunderstanding
Jamie, I am not saying that no one would be proud to be jewish. I wouldn't have said that and I corrected myself in a post you didn't see before you wrote your answer to it. What I said was that some idiot claimed that cortes was jewish, and being cortes, is nothing to be proud of. That aside, I think that you are not noticing all the suffering that other people in the world have faced, you are only seeing one suffering, and that isn't ok to me. I don't think that the IDF can claim that they cannot be expected to differentiate between a civilian and a combatant. If the British had just killed 1,400 people because they couldn't be expected to tell, most of them children, I would be horrified, the british would be horrified. So no Jamie, it isn't ok. And it is about time Israel recognizes that its founding was a crime to palestinians. That doesn't mean Israel should go anywhere. Canada's founding was a crime to indigenous people. I just want them to stop behaving the way they do. You are so brainwashed you can't even see. Do you really think that if Jewish people had been kicked out of their land and they didn't want to go anywhere, and they started throwing rockets, you would not support them? Honestly. I think you would.
Tam, toronto ontario
06/23/10 6:24 PM EST
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Tam
tam,They had the land after the stole the land, and then they lost the land in a war, again. Tommorow they can work with the large arab leagues surrounding Israel on all sides, and they can murder the Israelis again, and take back the land they claim was stolen from them. This history of persecution and stealing this land back and forth and taken from the Jews is centuries old. the tables may turn, where Jews are displaced from their homeland Israel, the Palestians will occupy it again, and then another war will happen to win it back. The suffering that is happening on both sides is a result of terrorists trying to kill Israelis, and with a little more power would ethnical cleanse Israel of jews. It is a known fact in the news Hamas the elected representatives denounce Israel and have publically stated they call for the destruction of Israel. Do you think Hamas means renovate? Redecorate? ha they mean take over and kill. IDF or trying to stop the thousands with the intent to keep on blowing themselves up in the Jerusalem markets to stay away, or show Israeli that you will stop the terrorists from attacking them. Your history of the conflict is very linear. I am happen you have the freedom to state your position, it is so blatently one sided. You never once, nor Quaia ever speak about the terroist attidudes, hamas using there citizens as human sheilds, and families that are proud when their palestian children grow up to be sucide bombers. I heard a quaia spokes person justify that teaching children to grow up and murder is retaliation, rather known as freedom fighting. Please, Israel would not occupy if they chose peaceful protests. These people are happy that they are considered Victims of Israel, it furthers their hate agenda, so why would they start to brhave?
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
06/23/10 7:03 PM EST
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don't put words in my mouth
Jamie I chose my wording very carefully in my posts, at no point did I say Israel is committing genocide, I pointed out that some of the pre-conditions for genocide, in this case ethnic cleansing and like it or not ethnic cleansing is considered genocide under the internationally agreed upon definition of genocide, look it up for yourself. I also never compared Israel to nazi Germany, I pointed out that they could join the club of nations who have committed genocide and that includes nazi Germany among others, I also pointed that even if they did sink to that level it wouldn't be as brutal as nazi Germany and that if it did happen it'd be of the same sort as Turkey who committed a genocide during a war. I also pointed out that I didn't think Israel would ever actually go so far as to commit a genocide. In Israel the idea of ethnic cleansing does have many supporters, they call it "transfers" though to make it sound nicer, look at the two different studies I provided links for, they show a significant amount of support for "transferring" Palestinians out of the West Bank. I also pointed out that there is a lot of opposition to the idea of "transfers" within Israel. You can't deny that the the idea of ethnic cleansing the West Bank isn't being seriously considered by many in Israel, I provided a lot of links from Israeli sources, I purposefully avoided using any non-Israel sources, that talked about the issue of "transferring" Palestinians. Its not something I made up, check the links I provided if you don't believe of better yet goggle "transfer Palestinians" and check it out for yourself also only using Israeli sources, there are plenty of them. I know what I talked about is ugly, its a very ugly topic, the fact is genocides and other crimes against humanity are carried out by normal human beings who believe they're doing the most rational thing to save their country, with the
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/23/10 7:29 PM EST
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cont'd
... to be concerned about the ethnic group they ended up committing a genocide against, their concerns were legitimate but their response was not. People need to realize that those who commit genocides are not monsters, they're average human beings just like any of us and under the right circumstances and pre-conditions any of us could participate in a genocide. It has happened in Canada and the US hundreds of years ago when the native population was wiped out by settlers from Europe and the survivors confined to reserves out of sight and mind of the settlers. It's happened a lot in biblical times too and at other times in human history. Nazi Germany was a unique case in that they were exceptionally brutal and applied modern mass manufacturing methods to create mass murdering factory systems, however genocide isn't unique to nazi Germany at all. Reread my original post paying attention to what I actually say and not to what you think I mean, did I not also point out that not all the pre-conditions for genocide were present in Israel? and that it'd only be possible if there were another major incident of violence with supporters of 'transfers" in power? I also pointed out that I thought one of the reasons Israel wouldn't actually sink to the level of genocide/ethnic cleansing is that there is a large enough group of Israels opposed to it to stop it from happening. So no I did not compare Israel to nazi Germany or accuse it of ethnic cleansing as you claim. What I did do is point out that it is on a very troubling path that could lead to genocide/ethnic cleansing and that the new infiltrator laws look like they're headed in that direction, the whole point of them is to remove Palestinians from Palestinian land unless they have permission from Israel to remain. Also here's another link about a Holocaust researcher in Israel who says much the same things as I did in my post http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/bauer-it-could-happen-here-1.17910
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/23/10 7:52 PM EST
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follow up
Jamie you didn't address it to me but you're right I didn't discuss the Palestinian side of things, especially hamas. There are all sorts of problems and horrible things being done on that side of the conflict too, however we hear about them all the time, Palestinians, in many people's minds, are all terrorists bent on the destruction of Israel, whenever a Palestinian does something to harm an Israeli its front page news around the world. The problems with hamas are condemned by every gov't around the world. Its all we hear about from the conflict. That side of things isn't news and is well known already but we never hear about Israelis who deny the right of Palestinians to exist or to have a homeland of their own, we never hear about the discriminatory policies Israel uses against Palestinians either, ones that have nothing to do with security at all, like the one banning Palestinians from being passengers in Israeli or foreign cars, or preventing children's toys from entering Gaza. Since we never hear about the wrongs Israel does I feel that it is important to point them out, neither side has clean hands yet we're told non-stop in the media and by our gov't that Israel is virtuous and Palestinians a plague on humanity. Its important to balance things out by reporting the stories and issues we never otherwise hear about. Btw I do consider myself a supporter of Israel, or rather a supporter of Israelis who are trying to create a just society there in spite of the conflict. If Israel were ever under actual threat of invasion I'd fully support sending Canadian troops to defend them, but that doesn't mean I support everything the Israeli gov't does, much of which just seems to make the conflict worse instead of de-escalating it and I'm strongly opposed to those Israelis who want to see Palestinians "transferred" out of the West Bank. I'm also very critical of the Canadian gov't yet I'm also a proud Canadian, the two do go together, its not all black and whit
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/23/10 8:24 PM EST
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Rich
commenting on your past post not your recent one. Rich, you did it again, your first sentence in your last post speaks about saying the pre conditions is an intentional well thought out plan to murder, and comit genocide, which doesn’t happen by accicdent. This is what you have clearly accused Israel, and Citizens of the Jewish state as carrying out toward the Palestinians. That is lies, a distortion of history and hate speech, which is why Quaia was banned. You cannot preach hate against a nation of people falsely with no consequence. You are claiming that if there is apre conditions for genocide and ethnic cleansing, that that didn’t happen accidently it is a well thought out plan Jews=nazi. That is what you are really saying, when you speak about Israelis committing one sided purposeful atrocities. You and Tam should be ashamed of your self, for suggesting, and claiming these things in many other posts, and then carrying own to try and justify what you are saying, but saying the same point. Help the Palestinians round up and jail the militants that are attempting to murder Israeli citizen through hundreds of suicide bombing, and the I am sure, can promise you Israel will respond with more tolerance to their self confessed enemies. Gorilla warfare, is not a palestian police force, if it was, Gaza would be housing their terrorists in their Jails, instead of filling up Israeli Jails. I bet, IDF would be happy to train and support the Gazans that wanted to imprison the terrorists that give them a bad name. Rich, You never mention the murderous militants provoking the IDF, through terrorism, and then hiding amongst their women and children. Rich you said you were fairly new to this cause, you are aware that Israel won the land in a couple of wars by people who stole the land from them, and while occupying the land that they captured back, the war continued and the majority of the population of displaced people said, "hey, what did you mean we lost the war&quo
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
06/23/10 8:41 PM EST
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cont...
of displaced people said, "hey, what did you mean we lost the war", lets kill those Jewish people who won the war, because we don’t want them here, and we don’t want to share this land with them. Then they got violent Rich. Then Rich they went on to say “ So, because they are occupying our land, and there are police check points that follow our every move, we cannot mobilize easily to fight those Israeli Jews, they will know our strategys if they occupy us. Why are those Israelis soooo mad, that we were once the aggresors. We will continue this war, and kill them again, and win back our once held position.”. middle east dialogue, 101. “Those wild Jews took are weapons away when we needed them to kill them…we are persecuted”. Hey Rich, why don’t you lobby the arab league s supporters of Palestine surrounding Israel, and ask them with there trillion dollars of oil money why are they not creating an army to win a war again Israel that they have many time s before, free Palestine and move in. help me understand why they wont free Palestine? I think to make Israel look like an aggressor by gaining sympathy and allowing hamas to keep there gazans fighting, rather then learning to build a homeland, and stop throwing rocks. They can have more power and weapomns and resources and money with the support of their neighboring relatives, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Countries more wealthier and Powerful then the U.s. So, whats the problem, who are the real racists rich.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
06/23/10 8:51 PM EST
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Jamie
Jamie pre-conditions for genocide, or other crimes against humanity for that matter are things like being a young/new nation, ethnic/religious conflict or wars, one side having control of the media, historical grievances between two groups, an imbalance of military strength, there are others having to do with hate speech, dehumanizing one side in a conflict and some others I don't recall offhand. Saying some pre-conditions for genocide exist within a country doesn't mean anyone is actively planning a genocide. Try googling pre conditions for genocide, if you do you'll see that some conditions are present in Israel and some are not. But like I said I don't actually believe that Israel will commit a genocide but I do consider it troubling that even just some of the pre conditions for it are present in Israel, again you're putting words in my mouth when you say I'm accusing Israel of planning a genocide. Perhaps I should have explained myself better than I did since you're not understanding me, I have never equated Israelis with nazis let alone Jews with nazis like you claim I did. Try reading what I actually wrote & not what you want me to have written to prove your point that I'm anti-semitic. Call me whatever you want, I've examined my conscience when criticism of Israel was being equated with anti-semitism & in my heart I know I harbour no prejudices or ill will towards Jews or even Israelis, except for the far right extremists of course but I'm opposed to far right extremists of any ethnicity or religion. Btw I'm not joining QuAIA, I was only involved to defend them from the smear campaign against them & in opposition to them being censored, now that's no longer an issue, no one will hear anything from me again on this topic, I'm happy to go back to ignoring the problems over there. But I will remain aware that Israel's hands are as dirty as the PA's in spite of what our gov't/media tells us all the time & that charges of anti-semitism are thrown a
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/23/10 9:36 PM EST
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okay one last thing
Jamie the US spends more on its military and has a larger military than most other nations combined and way more than Egypt, Syria, Jordan and for that matter Israel and every other country in the middle east, europe and asia. Even more than China in spite the fact that China has far more people than the US. That doesn't have much to do with anything but your claim that Egypt, Syria and Jordan are wealthier and more powerful than the US is ridiculous beyond belief and only shows you have no idea of the relative strength of the US compared to other countries or how much the US devotes to its military. However I got to admit Jamie I enjoyed this back and forth, you're better at this than most, I still think you're wrong but well done all the same. Like I said since censorship is no longer an issue I'm happy to be done defending QuAIA and its beliefs, not that I didn't enjoy it at times but enough is enough and its time to move on.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/23/10 9:49 PM EST
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they didnt' steal the land
Are you canadian, because then you are saying that you stole the land. Did you steal the land? That stealing the land was 500 years, you are talking about 2000 years. During those 2000 years the vast majority of Jewish people who now live there, did not live there. The palestinians did. They were born in that land have been there for generations after generations after generations. I am sorry, but I have a really hard time thinking that the Ashekazi are originally from the area. It would be a bit odd, don't you think, that a bunch of red heads happened to be from that area. So, give me a break. For all I know, genetically speaking, I am more jewish than many of them. Indeed, those disgusting DNA tests tell us that Jews are from there because they have some connection to the palestinians, genetically. And, for all I know, all palestinians were once Jewish who converted. And, the sephardite had been in Spain for over 2000 years. I can't go anywhere I was originally from and say hey, I have some of this DNA, I am kicking you out after 2000 years because it was stolen from my ancestors. You have no proof that all Jews left because they were expelled. Your only justification is then God gave the land to the Jews and that is not how international law should work. I want to see a deed from one of your ancestors from over 2000 years ago... just because it would be entertaining, but that would still not matter at all. You know, huitzilopochtli, god of the aztecs, promsied them land and gave them land. Should I revive that religion should we go get Mexico city? It goes into the realm of stupidity.
TAm, Toronto Ontario
06/23/10 11:53 PM EST
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One sided media
Hey Rich, If you accuse Israel of one sided media reports, you obviously have not watched Al-Jazeera.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
06/24/10 9:17 AM EST
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rich
Rich, nice debating with you too. I am happy that the cause of the day in the queer community is done for you. I was always for freedom of speech, however I do believe that it has been dangerous in terms of mobilize hate towards people of many nations. I believe the ban was reversed, as a new stradegy inorder to diminish the spotlight from Quaias issues and counter there causes strategicaly in other ways in the future. It was amussing to see how the queers against israeli apartheid yelled censorship, and feel vindicated as it is city council position to appease them in a little way, and deal in other ways, as there message is lost to most that dont care, and believe they are villifying Israels Right to be a "Jewish State", which Israel is known to be in all Countries around the world.good like to you and your future causes of the day Rich.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
06/24/10 9:36 AM EST
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Tam
Tam, your first paragraph screams racism. Do you really believe that ashkenai Jews are not originally from 0ne of the 12 tribes of Israel. To suggest you are an expert geneticist with you outrageous sweeping statements is quite nauseating.To quaote you , ". I am sorry, but I have a really hard time thinking that the Ashekazi are originally from the area." Really intellectual Tam to state, that only Palestian shave lived there for generations. If you look at the historical evidence you will see through out the centuries how many of the arab league nations, including Palestians have "stolen" the land of both races that at certain times in lived for generations in that land. The Romans gave the name Palestine, when they expelled the Jews at a certain time in history. You have know idea what you are speaking of as an expert on middle east wars through the centuries. Terrorists housed in the arab league nations have had claims on that land for centuries, and throughout history have expelled, and murdered Jews who that land goes back to Abrahamic lineage. Hebrews (Jewish people) were born and have lived there for generations too. Get your self more of a balanced truthful view, you sadly have a serious case of myopic vision.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
06/24/10 9:53 AM EST
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Tams logic
Tam, by your logic you cannot prove that palestians have lived there for thousands of years either? If you want to apply your theory to Jews, you should apply it to the Palestians who claim they were there first. Do you see the narrow tunnel you walk in, somewhat dark as well.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
06/24/10 12:14 PM EST
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Find a new Forum
I just want to put in my two cents and say that this year Pride has certainly been ruined for me (among many others). I am out and proud and was looking forward to celebrating Toronto's Queer community this summer. But, I am also a Jew and regardless of my condemnation or support of Israel, I would not like to stand at the sidelines and watch others call for the destruction of the State, nor see people walking around in Swastikas, especially on day that is about inclusion and celebration. Why does the QAIA find Pride to be an appropriate venue to spread their political position? Why is this the forum for hate? I can say, and this is only from a personal position, that I do not feel safe or welcome at Pride this year. Is that the mentality and message that the QAIA is looking to spread? And I don’t need to mention that Israel is the only country in the middle east to support gay rights or to hole two pride parades, or maybe I do since despite everyone posting it, no one seems to read it. Enough is enough. Make Pride for everyone next year. Don’t allow hateful language to hijack the parade and make it about something it was never intended to be.
Yale, Toronto Ontario
07/01/10 12:34 PM EST
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Milk of Kindness
Another vote for leaving Middle East conflict out of the parade. That battle's been going on for centuries and there's no reason to detract from Toronto's celebration of hard won rights, or use the parade as a platform to promote a foreign political agenda. Perhaps what's most shocking is that the country being protested is extremely gay friendly. Israel should be feted for being a beacon of LGBT acceptance in a virulently homophobic region of the world.
Clive, Toronto On
07/01/10 1:12 PM EST
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