Minor tension at Toronto Pride parade over Queers Against Israeli Apartheid
PRIDE / Police ask people wearing Jewish Defense League T-shirts to get back to their group
Xtra / National / Tuesday, July 06, 2010
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The chief controversy at this year's Toronto Pride parade, about the presence of Queers Against Israeli Aparthied (QuAIA) and Pride Toronto's initial effort to ban the group, did not go entirely unnoticed.

The Kulanu (Jewish gay group) contingent and the QuAIA contingent were staged only about 75 metres apart on Bloor St. Each group was much larger than last year. There was some shouting and posturing back and forth, and police stepped in briefly. They asked a small group of people wearing Jewish Defense League T-shirts to get back to their group.

In the end, everything worked out just fine.

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Reader Comments


 
Kulanu and QuAIA
First of all, I will congratulate both Kulanu and QuAIA for participating in the parade. With the Kulanu group, I think I saw a straight Jewish contingent with a few gays intermeshed. QuAIA and the unions did a great job organizing their joint groups to promote free speech first, and then oppose Israeli Apartheid. Yes, I did see supporters who carried signs about other injustices in the world including Iran. See link for both groups: http://www.youtube.com/user/skinnydipper08
SD, Toronto ON
07/06/10 7:08 PM EST
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Its a human rights issue; its a queer rights issue
There are two basic points as for why QuAIA's messaging is indeed a queer right's issue. 1) Queers and trans people exist in every society, therefore whenever any group is oppressed on the basis of religion, class or race (as in the present case) then queers and trans people in that society will necessarily be oppressed as well. Oftentimes they are treated especially worse by the oppressors, and there is some evidence of that in the case of Israel's oppression of the Palestinians. 2) Israel itself has made this a queer issue through its "Rebranding" campaign. One goal of the Rebranding campaign is to "brand" Israel as a state with a relatively progressive outlook on LGBT rights in order to distract from its poor (and worsening) human rights record in the West Bank and Gaza, not to mention the discrimination and segregation that it imparts on its own Arab Israeli citizens. As queers we cannot accept this; we cannot allow Israel to abuse the Palestinians and expropriate their land and resources in our name.
Sav., Toronto ON
07/06/10 7:18 PM EST
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Success
Both groups showed up and made their points peacefully. That's how it should be. The fact that some people are still trying to destroy Pride at City Council by pulling its funding is disgusting. Kulanu marched and that's great, but I think they should now make a STRONG statement that Pride should not be defunded.
Todd, Toronto On
07/06/10 7:22 PM EST
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Queers Want Free Speech?
It's news to me that queers want freedom of speech. Why are people routinely dragged into the HRC "courts" for making anti-queer remarks? Think it about carefully - you can't have it both ways.
gideon, toronto ontario
07/07/10 12:41 AM EST
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Gay Rights And Free Speech
I don't completely agree with the argument that lgbt owe free speech for gaining rights. Look around the world, and see that the places with the most open anti-gay hate speech, and a lot of it, have the least gay equality, visibility and rights. This was the case in the past with places that now have general equality. Positive changes for gays(and for Jews and other misunderstood minorities) came about via a thoughtful, reasoned, educated, discussion. The more such a discussion has become the social norm, equality has taken hold as people see no logical reason it should be otherwise. I don't believe our rights and justice as gays and lesbians came about because hate speech was as free-flowing and unfettered as vomit after a drinking binge. I know what the other view may argue at this point. They'll say that "gay" itself, the very notion was offensive to people. I re-iterate, that a reasoned discussion has shown us and will continue to show, that there's no logical reason that the position of respect and equality for gay persons should be offensive. This has been the main way our rights have moved forward.
Clint Babula, Thunder Bay Ontario
07/07/10 2:35 AM EST
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oh Man!
Who is the hot man standing with the QuAIA banner wearing the keffiyeh? YUM!
J Roman, Toronto ON
07/07/10 8:53 AM EST
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There is free speech in Israel
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/three-jaffa-men-charged-with-beating-kidnapping-transgender-brother-1.300573
Ray, Toronto Ontario
07/07/10 9:21 AM EST
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More free speech from Israel.
More free speech from Israel. What is the big deal here in Canada about reporting about Israel? Read the Israel media, for God's sake. http://www.haaretz.com/haaretz-authors-edition/the-colors-of-racism-1.293669
Ray, Toronto Ontario
07/07/10 9:27 AM EST
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Rope
Give the Zionists enough rope and they'll hang themselves. Those bruisers from the Jewish Defense League looked about as queer as Charles Bronson. I feel sorry for them in a way because blind faith in any system usually means being blind to its issues. No one is suggesting that there should be an end to the Israeli State, no one is comparing Israel to the rest of the Middle East. If Israel is so progressive, they would probably be most welcoming to making the country more equitable. Things are probably easier to change in Israel than say Iraq. Once Israel gets it shit together, maybe those hard working people from QuAIA will start a group focusing on Iraq, Morocco or Algeria or a group focusing on knitting...who cares what they do, as long as our community stays engaged politically. I feel sorry for the people in Kulanu, they seem like nice folk, but their fear of the truth makes me worry about how they get their points across. If they decide to surround themselves with bruisers and bratty high school boys, they will continue to lose credibility. I like the bubbies though; they are sweet and probably make one hell of a chicken soup! Still, you'd think they had better things to do.
loki, Toronto ON
07/07/10 11:09 AM EST
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Matt, you are not getting it!
Matt, it's not about free speech. It's not about the right to say offensive things, or wrong things, it's about hateful, unfair speech in a gay pride parade, where everyone should feel safe and welcome. When you bash the Jewish state, the hatred created spills over to all of us Jews. You know very well that hateful words turn into hateful actions, and before you know it, innocent people like Matthew Sheppard wind up dead.
Carol, Toronto ontario
07/07/10 11:15 AM EST
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Clint
A few issues are: what is a reaonsable argument? when do we stop talking with people who vehemently disagree with us and try to reach the rest of the population? And, I don't think that queer people think that all speech is alright. I certainly support hate speech laws. Criticizing a state, specially one that has so much to be criticized for and which presents itself as our friend, who benefits from our country's support, must be part of free speech as long as it doesn't attack a people. QuAIA doesn't attack a people, not the Jewish people, nor the entire Israeli population, and as a result, it is not hate speech, it isn't even close to inappropriate for a parade or for a society to identify what Israel does with apartheid. They should have thought about how a big tall wall containing a population would look like to the world? They should be looking for peace and stop the settlements. They should seek to de-escalate the situation.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/07/10 11:26 AM EST
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Carol, WTF?
People seem to forget that Pride Parades are still very much political events where LOTS of things expressed are found to be offensive to some segment of society. Consider the drag queens, the nudists, the lesbian feminists, the leather and bdsm folk - all of these things are offensive to our foes (and some "allies"), and their inclusion in the parade is celebrating that political expression. Why in the hell should legitimate criticism of a domestic policy enacted by the State of Israel be any different? It irritates me deeply that the anti-LGBT pro-Israeli lobby believes their sensitivities should be respected by trampling the civil rights of other people.
Dan, Toronto ON
07/07/10 11:46 AM EST
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Kulanu's shame
I am disgusted that Kulanu would allow the anti-LGBT thugs from the Jewish Defense League to march with them at a gay pride event. The JDL refers to the LGBT community as "Sodomite Communists" (see http://jdlcanada.wordpress.com/2010/06/24/boycott-pride-toronto/) and called for violent confrontation at the parade, yet were still welcomed with open arms by Kulanu (meaning "All of Us," including anti-LGBT thugs, but excluding anyone who disagrees with the party line). The should be deeply ashamed for bringing a clearly violent faction into the parade.
Dan, Toronto ON
07/07/10 11:58 AM EST
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to Dan of Toronto
Good, now you know how LGBT Jews feel when a group like QuAIA is invited to participate in the Pride. After all, they are essentially calling for an end to Israel, even if that's not how they put it. Every time this issue comes up, the anti-Semitic rhetoric on LGBT sites and blogs goes up, and I seriously wonder if I should move to Israel, instead of marching with anti-Semites in the parade.
An American, Brooklyn NY
07/07/10 12:33 PM EST
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to the American In Brooklyn
Israel is an apartheid state. Stating that is not anti-semitic. Israel can remedy it's policies and remain Israel just as South Africa abolished apartheid and remained South Africa. If you want to move to Israel you should spend some time in the Occupied West Bank or watch Palestinian families be evicted from East Jerusalem neighbourhoods like Silwan or Sheikh Jarrah. You should go there to see what happens "on the other side" not to simply reinforce your polarized view.
J Roman, Toronto ON
07/07/10 12:47 PM EST
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Oh please, American
Not all LGBT Jews tow the rightwing conservative Israeli party line.. many of the organizers of QuAIA are Jewish themselves. And they have never called for an end of Israel - that's progadandist hyperbole. You also hit on the other canard, that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitism. It's not.
Dan, Toronto ON
07/07/10 12:49 PM EST
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Gidion...Gay groups DON'T support censorship.
Gideon, No mainstream queer groups have EVER advocated censorship. To the extent that individuals have tried it, queer groups have refused to support them. The December 9th Coalition refused to endorse a BC Human Rights complaint against a series of virulently homophobic letters to the Nelson Daily News. Their lack of support forced the BCHRC to drop the complaint against these homophobes. EGALE refused to get involved in Human Rights Complaints against a Catholic Newspaper and against homophobic letters to the editor in Alberta. And just recently in Britain, the crown was forced to drop hates crimes charges against a homophobe activist after OutRate's Peter Tatchell announced he would testify for the defense. If gay groups are willing to stand up for free speech for our own most offensive critics, I'll be damned if we're going to support censorship of Israel's critics.
Heather, Vancouver bc
07/07/10 4:21 PM EST
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Israeli Apartheid
Everyone should be protesting against Israeli Apartheid.
jckfrmsincty, Loveland United States
07/07/10 4:47 PM EST
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Canada shows it's Pride..sorry i mean HATE.
You poor deluded people think the average person in Palestine or any other of Isreals enemies including Iran would march for you have another thing coming. You would be stoned,lashed and beheaded to a cheering audience! Unless you have lived in Isreal you really can not comment on whats its like there, nowhere in Canada has their been car bombs, children stabed while waiting for the school bus,and missiles strikes against you. Furthermore maybe before you start condeming another nation take care of your own first! Make sure you have full equality there, make sure everyone in Canada is accepting of gays and their rights, and while your at go ask the first americans what they think of Canada past and present!
Quinn, New York City New York
07/07/10 6:13 PM EST
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This is what you don't get Quinn
I don't see what your point is.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/07/10 7:27 PM EST
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in the immortal words of Lillian Hellmann
Since when did we have to agree with people to defend them from injustice?
Craig, Toronto Ontario
07/07/10 7:29 PM EST
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carol
Thanks for your input carol, your bang on.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/07/10 7:35 PM EST
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How to boycott Israel, a must see LoL
boycotting Israel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saeky9I5T9c&feature=related
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/07/10 8:00 PM EST
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Just watch us Jamie
It has already started... we might not boycott all products, but we might chose AMD (regardless of its dealings with Israel) over Intel. There goes Ahava, Israel's agricultural exports, etc etc. We don't have to bring Israel's to a standstill, we just have to significantly decrease the demand for its products. But, if you are right, I guess there is nothing to worry about right?
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/07/10 8:34 PM EST
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tam
Tam, make a dent, it wont make a difference, I assure you. I would bet my forest hill home, 2 bmws, my cottage and motor boat on it. p.s I march regularly for Ocap in our city. They love my charitable donations. Tam, I am so glad you took the whole video in. How about those Israeli' offering free healthcare. Yup, thats apartheid. You,dan, Elle....brilliant. We cant wait to watch Quaia all year long marching for these rights, because it means so much to you. University ave, and more. We as a city, all ethnicities are viewing this as entertainment. Really, I promise.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/07/10 9:13 PM EST
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you tell that...
to South Africa...
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/07/10 9:26 PM EST
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@Tam
really? Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah you do know that AMD does use Intel's technologies? You can't even run most computers without them. Did Super Genius like your self even knew that?
Peter From, Toronto ON
07/07/10 10:57 PM EST
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ashamed
i am ashamed at how people are taking a simple issue and turning it into an issue of hate and racism. QuAIA has a right to let their voices be heard and Jews have the right to defend themselves. but using a term that is false and misleading and discriminatory is also wrong. The Jews were right to point out that QuAIA would not exactly be welcomed in Palestine and Israel is indeed a gay friendly country. For those unsure of what QuAIA says on Israel's right to exist i direct you to their site and look under the section of FAQs, you will see that they are ambiguous in the answer which is scary. As gay people i would have assumed that QuAIA would be more concerned with fighting homophobia in the Mid East and the killing of gays in Muslim countries. would have been more concerned with saving those two teenagers who were hung in Iran for being gay or fighting Hamas whose leader called being gay a mental disease, but if they believe that their limited time is better spent attacking Israel then that is their right. But the booing and jeering from the crowd should have been a sign to QuAIA, you are loosing credibility and ground in the community, fight homophobia, fight for justice for gays in the Middle East.
nikolai, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 12:30 AM EST
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tell us about it
Ok Nikolai, I'm gonna call your bluff... please tell me your ten-brilliant point plan for "saving gays in the middle east"? (I notice you only use the word "gay" and "homophobia" hence you ignore trans people and other parts of the queer spectrum) Please, tell us how you plan to enact positive change for queers that you've never met in Jordan, Syria, Saudi... are you capable of even telling us the basic details of the present status of queers in the middle east? Do you know which Arab countries are relatively more tolerant towards LGBT people? Is the situation relatively better in Syria or Jordan? Since the situation is significantly better in some Arab countries versus others, how would you approach those situations differently? Since you are so concerned with the problems facing queers and trans people in the Middle East, I'm sure you've spent countless hours thinking through these complex issues. I'm sure you have also been in communication with queer groups in the Middle East to ask them how you can be supportive. Please tell us, how did they respond to your query? Because if you can't answer these basic questions in a reasonable manner, I'm going to have to conclude that you don't actually give a shit about queers in Arab countries, you just like to use that as a talking point to bash QuAIA because you don't like it when people criticize Israel.
Sav., Toronto ON
07/08/10 1:44 AM EST
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Bias.
This is so fucking BIASED. I get how PTP has a mission statement to set love free (cue the guitar and bon fire), but to immerse yourself into the Pride parade with a microphone and actually argue and preach Xtra's mission statement with the opposition is an insult to quality and fair journalism. I watched the Christian Fundamentalist channel the other night. Listening to you, Matt Mills, I couldn't tell the difference between the Christian Fundamentalists and you. Say, here's a new term for you, Mills, and the entire Pink Triangle Press - a political organization that pushes an aggressive agenda and CENSORS opposing opinions and twists the popular rhetoric to persuade the population. How's "Queer Fundamentalism" sound? Geez - you guys are on a slippery slope. As a friend of mine put it, Xtra is the FOX NEWS of gay journalism. Hypocritical, pompous, self-serving, and disgusting. You're not my community newspaper, and you don't speak for me.
Karl, Newmarket ON
07/08/10 4:07 AM EST
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Bias, like every other media outlet
So Karl, what *exactly* do you find hypocritical about Xtra/PTP? EVERY media organization has a bias - it's the nature of the business. When I read the National Post, I see a deeply right wing conservative bias. When I read the Toronto Star, I see a mildly right wing conservative bias. Both organizations are clearly pro-Israel in their coverage and have smeared and vilified QuAIA as being a "hate group" for exercising their right to free speech. How has Xtra CENSORED anybody? Seriously, name some examples, or are you just angry that their bias doesn't match yours?
Dan, Toronto ON
07/08/10 8:08 AM EST
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nikolai re sav
Nikolai, thanks for weighing in, your absolutely right. Sav is trying to pick a petty arguement because you wrote your comment and didnt say LGBT, this is further evidence, of how many on the post are simply incapable of mature dialogue that would move this issue forward. I have been hearing also how the shock value of the JDL taking part in the parade has offended many. Well, I can't say for certain, but maybe they just cleverly wanted to make the point, that Free speeech, doesn't mean Any speech. Terms that Quaia and some leaders in the Gay commmunity have used include statements that Israeli is commiting genocide, are terrorists, etc. While all along, Quaia is trying to separate the issues by ssuggesting they are "Only" attacking Israeli policies, not Jews that support Israels right to defend itself against terrorist attacks. Freedom of speech movement is a splinter group of Quaia, who wanted to use a less polarizing term like Israeli aparthied to pave the way for Quaia. if those in the parade were offended by the Jdl, maybe the point was, they are allowed to counter act offensive terms, and follow the freedom of speech our community is stating is everyones right. It was clever. For those who accuse JDL of homophobia, they marched peacefully in the parade support Gay Jewish rights, they "lost there way, and completely listened to the police when they were gentley directed back to there spot. I have mentioned before how these few guys, have taken on the task of protecting jewish cementaries, and synagogues here in Toronto that are vandelized with anti Israeli messages on a regular basis. Now tell me, these guys who help to repair descrated jewish cemetaries here in Toronto, and Canada, are nothing but provacateurs. Queers, want freedom of speech, it opens up many groups to sticking the word queer before their cause and use the media laden pride event as their platform. Free media coverage, for All.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 9:16 AM EST
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LOVE
Can't We all just stop fighting and LOVE one another. haha All this fighting and tension is giving me a headace. lol
JJ, TORONTO ONTARIO
07/08/10 9:27 AM EST
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take an aspirin jj , then go to a Jewish doctor
I also think it is noteworthy to point out that when we see on the news people burning another Countries Flag, when we see them wish the leaders of those Countries dead , by drawing pictures of Bush for instance and then setting those images on fire, suggests to me that they are are as Quaia says "just attacking "Goverment policies", but suggesting death personally to the leaders. Not Goverment Policies, only. Now, thats violence. There is a reason a billion dollars is paid on security for leaders to be protected, many protestesters plot crimes although time, and hide in the crowd of so called peaceful activists, whoa re simply sheilding them and condoning they extremists steps some take for there cause. Violence is usually proceeded by hurtful language to anothers race. Look up the riots in Christie Pits, that took place in Toronto. In the 80's there was a news article showing a sign that was found in Wasaga beach, that said "No Dogs, and Jews allowed". now, if you want to state that Jewishness is not related to condemnation of Israel, go ahead, it is both ignorant and naive.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 9:33 AM EST
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no Jamie
No Jamie... I mentioned that Nikolai ignored part of the queer spectrum, but that wasn't my main point... you ignored everything else I said. My point was that you, Nikolai the rest of you yammering about queer rights in the Arab and Muslim world have no idea what you are talking about. You've never studied the issue. You've never reached out to anyone in that part of the world to find out how (or IF) you can help them. You claim to condemn the treatment of LGBT people in that part of the world but really it is just a talking point to deflect criticism of Israel. Because all you really care about is Israel.
Sav, Toronto ON
07/08/10 9:38 AM EST
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JDL and their "good work"
What was offensive about the JDL partaking in the parade is that they openly advocated violence and confrontation, and they are an ANTI-LGBT organization to boot. By Pride Toronto rules, they would not be able to march as a stand alone group in the parade. They are the ones bullying and willing to trample the civil rights of a group that disagrees with them, not QuAIA. That Kulanu let these violent thugs march with them is disgusting. And really, that that the JDL also repair desecrated Jewish cemeteries (while admirable) is completely beside the fucking point - it does not excuse their other thuggish violent actions and rhetoric. Just as with Israel and its Apartheid regime, doing one good deed does not inoculate you for all other criticism.
Dan, Toronto ON
07/08/10 9:44 AM EST
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dan
Dan, if they were being "violent" the police would have escorrted them away. If they were homophobic, they would not have been marching peacefully for Jewish and Israeli gay rights. They would not march in the gay pride parade and contrict any kind of stand on homophobia to march with us. They were exercising their freedom of speech, and their right to support Jewish queers that are Pro Israeli. You wanted freedom of speech, stop whining and making stuff up. Offensive language, is hurtful all around. But to blatently lie on this post by suggesting they acted violent, is a lie. The police would have asked them to leave. Go protest next year against the JDL rights to march in support of Pro Jewish and Israeli gay rights. As I said, they would not have compromised homophobic values you claim they are about, to march next to, and with their Jewish LGBT community. Free Speech.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 10:10 AM EST
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sav
Sav, how can you say, you know what I researched? That I haven't studied the issue. Don't project. You don't know what my degree is in. Stop whining with dan, unless you are one in the same. How do you know I haven't reached out to anyone one persecuted by muslim homophobia. Your Scrambling, because you have nothing left. Cheap shots and accusations, is all you got. Now thats intelligent. why don't you reply "Oh, Yeah". Same thing. LoL
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 10:17 AM EST
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no Jamie, I'm serious and it's true!
You really have not studied this issue, and I know for a fact you don't know anything about it! Please, name for me the major Arab LGBT organizations in the middle east? Which Arab and Muslim countries are relatively better when it comes to LGBT rights? How does Syria compare to Iran for example? How would you approach building a relationship of solidarity between queers in the Middle east and queers in Canada? Seriously, take a stab at these questions... we'd all just be curious to hear your thoughts on the subject.
Sav., Toronto ON
07/08/10 11:06 AM EST
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sav
sav, I have answers to all those questions....However I have a life and a job, and do not have the time to humor you and demonstrate my intellect. It is advisable for you to broaden your researc ability and check out all the humantarian aid Israel does for all the the middle east countries that victimize their own through sharia law, and other brutal actions. Theur is a youtube video of Iran burying two Lesbian women about to their neck, and have the whole community stoning them to death, for being caught in the act. I have iranina friends that have fled to Canada, because of the middle east brutality, and intolerance to being LGBT. If you claim you know so much, why aren't you there helping. Or on University street in Toronto Now protesting. I look forward to your contingents protesting all through the year, the genocide you claim Israel is commiting to the Palestinians. Or is your free speech and advocacy only worth riding the coat tales of a pre established pride event. You are a hypocrite my friend. Go mobilize, since you claim to be an expert.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 11:26 AM EST
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Again with the reading comprehesion
Jamie: Try again, or continue to lie some more. Did I say they acted violently at the parade? No. I said they openly advocated violence and confrontation - they certainly were spoiling for a fight, and they were the only ones reported to have been turned back by the police for their provocative behaviour. (note, free speech doesn't cover intimidation and threats) JDL's homophobic attitudes are well known - and as such they would not be able to march as a stand alone group in the parade as per Pride Toronto rules. That they were on good behaviour for the day does not change their homophobic, thuggish nature, regardless of what you suggest.
Dan, Toronto ON
07/08/10 11:32 AM EST
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you can't deflect the issue Jamie
It's really funny Jamie to see how desperate you are to defend Israel's policies. First of all no one accused Israel of "genocide", we accused it of apartheid.. the reason you are changing the subject is because you cannot make a rational argument that Israel is not an apartheid state. In the West Bank, Israeli Jews live in Jewish-only settlements built illegally on Palestinian land. These settlements are connected by a super-modern highway system that only Israeli Jews are allowed to use -- Palestinians are forbidden from driving on them, even though many of the travel right past Palestinian populated areas. This is not to mention that Jewish Israelis are granted full citizenship rights, right to assembly, speech, etc. Meanwhile Palestinians live under Israeli military rule without any of these rights. Palestinians are forced to live on ever-decreasing swaths of land, while their water and other resources are expropriated for Jewish use. Further, they are restricted to using a transportation system with roads in deep disrepair, they are forced to travel through a complex series of checkpoints that is wasteful and draining on their economy and most of the checkpoints are between Palestinian areas, they have nothing to do with security! I've passed through them myself. That is almost exactly what happened in South Africa and it is apartheid! And this thing you say about Israel giving humanitarian aid... wow, that is ridiculous. What Israel actually does in Gaza is that it blocks almost everything from getting in, whether it be Gaza's trade partners or humanitarian relief. Further, Israel blocks Gaza from exporting ANYTHING, so it completely starves the Gazans from building up their economic infrastructure. Then occasionally Israel allows a handful of goods in from outside donors... and then Israel says "look at our nice humanitarian gestures... we are so kind to Gaza!" Ha! What a rip-off.
Sav., Toronto ON
07/08/10 11:59 AM EST
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racist Jamie, racist
I get the feeling that a lot of Jewish doctors, just like a lot of jewish people in general, do not support the state of Israel. But, the point is that there are doctors of all religions and ethnic backgrounds here Jamie. To say otherwise is simply racist, which doesn't surprise me in your case.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 12:46 PM EST
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dan, sav, tam
Dan, the Jdl were marching peacefully for my LGBT Jewish rights here and in Israel. Say what you want. If you are not exagerating they would have been asked to leave or a formal complaint would have been made by the police if they actively intimidated anyone. the fear is in your head, not their actions. They marched peacefully in solidarity with their fellow Jewish queers. If they were homophobic, they wouldn't have literally embraced us. Sav, you are having a political arguement with yourself. Israel has those policies in place due to the unprecented violence of suicide bombing attacks, and other terroist actions that they have to combat daily. If the Palestians want a security wall removed, or any other kind of living issue they have, they need to stop voting in a goverment that calls for the death and destruction of Israel. This is a no arguement debate. It is simple. Look at the g20 here. Excessive force, yes...why their were terrorists in the midst of peaceful demonstartors. You really expect the police to make nice with everyone thatquietly condones violence. The protestors after condemed police force, but were cheering for people acting out against them, or allowing these criminal activists to hide in the midst of innocent protesters. I am happy you are anti Israeli, your arguements, have no foundation when you do not condone the palestian violence on innocent Israeli citizens. My previous posts, defend my position with integrity, and facts. Tam, "racist, racist"..sticks and stones. you are an absolute joke on the post. Many have told you. You surely need your medication adjusted. On my way to donate to Ocap, and the Israeli national fund. Making a decent living helps. You should try it sometime. Or, more importantly , Why is it you won't live amongst the Palestinians as freedom fighters?
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 1:41 PM EST
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@ Sav @ Tam
You do know that Israeli's are not allowed into Palestinian Area too ? As for the highways they were giving to Israeli control under the Oslo Accords and from this the West Bank is divided up into three Areas and those Areas would go under Israeli control and one of those Areas does included the bypass roads. Area A in under the Control of the Palestinian National Authority. Area B is under Israeli Control, and Area C is under Israeli Civil control and this does included those highways and the Areas the settlements are located. Guess what Sav and Tam the Palestinian National Authority did sign this and agreed to it. Yeah of course it Apartheid. It just proves how little you really understand about this conflict. Attack me and call me a racist all you want but it just show how little you really know about this conflict. Sav as for checkpoints I was in New York the other day and I had to travel through checkpoints at the airport and also you have to go through them at almost any border crossing in the world, these are nothing new since almost any country seems to have them. As for walls USA has one with Mexico, and even Spain has them with their African neighbors. Tam don't call people racist when they don't agree with you after all your white hood is showing
Peter From, Toronto ON
07/08/10 1:41 PM EST
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Peter
ALL JEWISH SETTLEMENTS IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK INCLUDING EAST JERUSALEM ARE ILLEGAL !!! Palestinians got along very well for centuries with the Jewish population before the Zionist "War of Independence" (and don't bother with "it was the Arab nations that declared war" what do you expect? they knew very well that the Zionists would not be happy with any of the partitions the UN presented) stole the land with the aid of the British sell-outs and began their ethnic cleansing and apartheid. Peter - all those other walls you mention are just as abhorrant as the Israeli Apartheid Wall and that "checkpoint" you passed through at the New York airport can hardly be compared to the multitude of checks Palestinians endure every day, many times a day. I've passed through some of them myself with a Palestinian -they made him take off his coat, shoes, belt, searched his pockets, waved a wand, walked through a gate 3 or 4 times while all I had to do was flash my Canadian passport - I have more freedoms than he does in his own country. On the occasion of leaveing Israel / Palestine I was on a minibus taxi and the only two people pulled off the cab before entering the airport were the two Arab people. I've stayed in Hebron (Al-Khalil)and while it is true that no Israelis are allowed within the city, the city itself is circled in wire fencing and has multiple towers and cameras focused on the city at all times. It was unreal to me that people ARE FORCED to live like this 24/7. Imagine for a second that one day your living your life as a normal person, working your fields, raising a family next thing your under the occupation of a foreign entity and you're one of the "lucky ones" that AT LEAST wasn't driven off your land living as a refugee in a foreign country.
J Roman, Toronto ON
07/08/10 3:45 PM EST
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checkpoints
If Israelis are prevented entering Palestinian areas, then they are prevent by Israel not the Palestinians. I was in the West Bank and I entered the Palestinian areas... Ramallah, Jenin, Hebron, Bethlehem, etc.... with no hindrance from the Palestinians. Of course, I had to travel through Israel's ridiculous checkpoints. The main thing to understand about the checkpoints is that they are NOT between Palestinian areas and Israeli areas. They are in between Palestinian areas, preventing Palestinians from traveling among their own cities and villages. That has nothing to do with security and everything to do with power. Why should millions of Palestinians have to pass through an Israeli checkpoint everyday just to go to work? That is not the same thing as the airport Peter and you know it. What good is Area "A" "B" "C" when Palestinians are not allowed to control who moves among their own areas?? Israel has never fulfilled its obligations under Oslo, everyone knows that Oslo is over, Israel only relies on Oslo when they think it helps to justify one of their military polices. Otherwise, they ignore it completely.
Sav., Toronto ON
07/08/10 3:49 PM EST
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It seems sad to me Jamie...
It seems sad to me that you look to be embraced by evangelists, the thugs at the JDL and the right. The JDL called us hamasphrodites when they sent a post to come to the parade. You justify that Jamie. And, it is people like you who brought that into our peaceful parade. As far as I being a joke Jamie, only you and Peter and I am sure now the entire bunch of pro-Israel lunatics will too... but you see, unlike you, I don't need to be loved by people who are insane. It is racist to imply that all doctors are jewish.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 4:40 PM EST
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poor tam
Tam, your scrambling again. I never said all doctors are Jewish, however it would benefit you to watch the "how to boycott Israel" clever video which was posted to help you out. When you twists statements such as I implied all doctors are Jewish, we can all see how lonely you are , and any interaction you can get, no matter what insanietys you spew, is the attention you are desparately grappling with. now, tam I will pay for any Muslim doctor or therapist you can find to help you. I promise. Regarding the Jdl,they apparently were excercising their freedom of speech which you all wanted. If they did Anything illeagal they should have been charged, or escorted out of the parade. They would not compromise their homophobic beliefs to march is solidarity with LGBT Jews, and they do not need an LGBT Parade to show they take a Pro israeli stand. Again Tam, you target some nice accepting evangelicals that do have family members they love, regardless of their childrens sexuality. If you are going to say "All Evangelicals are homophobic" etc.... Don't be surprise when you here some pro Israelis state "All of Islam is terrorists." Thanks tam for effectively educating people how to hate other groups through generalizations.I would say shame on you, but I won't, I feel bad for your parents who carry have to carry the burden.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 6:14 PM EST
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@J Roman @ Sav
Wow the Wall, funny there are ones in Mexico USA Border and with Spain and it's African neighbors and they are never called the A bomb(FYI: the reason they don't want those people either) . They put it up there to prevent suicide bombers from targeting Israeli Cities oh well I guess Israeli civilians don't really matter to you and read the Oslo Accords Areas B and C are under Israeli control by agreement with the Palestinian National Authority.(denied this all you want but they are)I want to ask both of you this question between 1948 and 1967 Gaza was a part of Egypt and the West Bank was apart of Jordan. So why couldn't either Egypt and Jordan allow the Palestinians to establish a state under their control? Oddly since the PLO was established in 1964 to liberate the West Bank from Jordan and not Israel. You might want to think about this and Yes J Roman your history seem to be wrong in 1948 Arab countries invaded Israel and they fought back and Israel won. If Arab countries accepted the partition then none of this would not have happen and Also you do live "our home on native land" also stolen land and Apartheid? funny how the South Africans copied Canada's Indian Act oh but is always Israel's fault for something and it also interesting that you people never think Canada is a Apartheid. Just saying if they did copy our Indian Act to create Apartheid . I'm just laughing when I read this since you really sound like Politics and the English Language by George Orwell. Just another case
Peter From, Toronto ON
07/08/10 8:04 PM EST
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Peter is having another lapse
The wall with Mexico, however absurd it is, is on US land, not in Mexico's land. I am sure it is also the case for Spain. This type of stupid reasoning is why I usually just ignore you.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 10:03 PM EST
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Jamie
There boy, there.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 10:20 PM EST
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@ Tam
Places such as California, New Mexico,Arizona, Colorado, Utah, Texas and Nevada did belong to Mexico when the United States sweetie sole it by means of war but of course you must be a super genius and you must know this? of course you didn't but you just attack because you can't give a answer or many you could answer this why didn't Egypt or Jordan give the Palestinians statehood when there areas were under their control? I bet you can't answer this since you seem to blame Israel for almost anything
Peter From, Toronto ON
07/08/10 10:31 PM EST
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Tams's reasonig is just
attacking people when she don't agree to agree, funny how you don't like a democratic debate but then again you show your white hood every time you do this you were told this before.
Peter From, Toronto ON
07/08/10 10:36 PM EST
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We have gone through this Peter
There is not agreeing and then there is being confronted with just plain stupidity. Let me explain it to you, slowly, I am not sure that there is a god, so if someone believes in god, I disagree that they can claim that, that is all. You comparing whatever non existen wall in Spain has and the US wall (which is in US soil) with Israel's wall is just, well, plain stupid. There is just not going around it. Here is how I see it, you stop the stupidity, I am a forgiving person, but I don't really think you have much of a choice in the matter.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 11:55 PM EST
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@ Tam BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH
and Tam this is non existed wall in Ceuta and Melilla Spain that borders Africa. One of many that the BBC shows (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8342923.stm) So this is not a Wall? and sweetie this is not stupid but rather reality but of course a Super Genius like yourself still can't even admit to this. You might want to look that the other links that the BBC gives sweetie there are others like Israel's too and those are not a form of Apartheid
Peter From, Toronto ON
07/09/10 12:08 AM EST
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