Thursday, June 10, 2010 5:36 PM

Oh, so NOW the left demands freedom of speech. Because you were awfully quiet when Ann Coulter was run out of Ottawa. Fucking hypocrite scum.

ron

Thursday, June 10, 2010 5:33 PM

Hi Ron - Ms. Coulter was not run out of town. The whole kerfuffle seems to be the result of young conservatives who could not organize a simple event. BTW - are the Blogging Tories linking to Xtra these days?

GaySolomon

Thursday, June 10, 2010 6:10 PM

Queer West Arts and Culture Centre concurs with 519 Statement. Our statement while not as long was posted on Pride Toronto Facebook fan page today where a lot of folks are posting their opinions pro and negative. Pride Toronto removes our every comment including our official statement made by the Queer West Board of Directors. The 519 statement is now all over Facebook including Pride Toronto's Facebook fan page. Will Pride Toronto remove it, highly unlikely. Will they listen who knows?

Michel F. Paré

Thursday, June 10, 2010 7:27 PM

Shocking News!!?! The same 519 Community Centre that prescribes a 'constructive dialogue with the broader communties' just hosted an Anti-Pride rally earlier in the week. The 519 provided a space for both organzied and random interests and people to stand up and disparage Pride for 3 hours and discuss ways of breaking Pride down for 1 hour. Kind of hard to start a dialogue on those grounds, no?

Ryan

Thursday, June 10, 2010 8:58 PM

Ryan, it appears harder when your side simply will make sure the other side doesn´t get heard. It is precisely by providing space for people to voice their opinions that the 519 fosters dialogue. And, wasn´t your side the one that was ready to destroy Pride if they didn´t get rid of QuAIA? Didn´t they go on and on and threw a temper tandrum until they got their way? They were ready to destroy Pride because they care so much about it and as homosexuals.

Tam

Thursday, June 10, 2010 10:52 PM

Well I hope this means they will be removing their beer garden and not profiting from the event. Would be nice to have a quiet park instead of the drunken squaller.

jeff

Thursday, June 10, 2010 10:37 PM

@Ryan the same 519 that has provided meeting space for Pride Toronto, AGMs, General meetings, Planning meetings , Strategic Planning sessions, The Same 519 that shared revenues from their Beer Gardens in the lean years. The Same 519 whos leadership have been long time volunteers for Pride.

Mark Smith

Friday, June 11, 2010 12:19 AM

Let us always return to the basic facts. The two primary requirements for participation in Pride are to be:

(1.) part or supportive of the LGBT community; and,
(2.) law-abiding.

Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QuAIA) meets both of these requirements.

Singling out one group that meets the requirements and banning its lawful political speech is censorship.

Rick

Friday, June 11, 2010 6:37 AM

QAIA is totally offensive for many reasons. First of all, marrying "Israel" and "apartheid" is a brilliant PR trick (like naming your group "The Moral Majority" but it is a lie and offensive to many many people: if I decided to walk in Pride with a poster saying "Homo Against Ham-ASS" (Hamas) do you really think anyone would accept it? The Palestinians in Pride would be up in arms (maybe literally!)

Secondly,QAIA is a totally opportunistic and manipulative group... using the word "Queer" in its title is just an entry point to Pride... when these same people were protesting at universities or at TIFF, "queer" was NOT one of the words they were using; but in the end all they have managed to do is to change what used to be a feel-good Pride into one of total dissension.
Hasn't anyone noticed that because of QAIA no-one is talking any more about GAY issues for Pride? GAY issues have completely gone missing. Now Pride Toronto is all about Israel, Palestinians, QAIA...their tactics have been a total success, but meanwhile Pride and GAY ISSUES have lost out!
Bravo to the "intellectuals" here who have not bothered to realize just how they have been USED!
Idiots!

Ken in Paris

Friday, June 11, 2010 8:17 AM

@ Ken in Paris - QuAIA and its message may be offensive to you and others - but it is a legitimate political message that was censored by PT. Free expression means that we might encounter messages with which we might disagree, or which we might find offensive. If other queer organizations wish to march with a contrary (legal) message, then that is also permissable. I agree that QuAIA's message has received far more prominence because of the ban, but I don't think they can be blamed for that. Mr. Gladstone, PT and the right wing are the architects of that reality. In fact, before this controversy I was relatively uninformed about QuAIA's message. It forced me to take a hard look at their position and to evaluate its validity. I now believe more strongly than ever of the legitimacy of the view that Israel is an apartheid state.

GaySolomon

Friday, June 11, 2010 10:53 AM

Ken in Paris I really doubt you'd have any problem at all marching with a "Homo against Hamass" sign, why would you? you seem to have a rather simplistic understanding of people if you think folks critical of Israeli policy are supporters of Hamas. The world isn't quite so binary as you seem to see it. Its not a leap at all to be supportive of human rights in both Israel and the occupied territories, to be critical of both Israeli policy and Hamas policy at the same time. The apparent belief of yours that those critical of Israeli policy must be supporters of Hamas ranks right up there in terms of idiocy with the accussation that those critical of Israel are by definition anti-semitic.

While I cannot vouch for each member of QuAIA's sexual orientation they do strike me as actually being queers so they didn't just tack on the word Queers just to get into Pride, they are actual members of the LGBT community in Toronto and so have every right to participate in Pride, if you have evidence that they are not queer and are in fact heteros trying to get into Pride under false pretenses then show us that evidence. I think you're just having trouble accepting that they are legitimate members of the LGBT community in Toronto because you disagree with them, well that's fine but still no reason to censor them.

As well whether or not Israel is an apartheid state is debatable but QuAIA and other Jewish groups like Idependent Jewish Voices make a very good case that apartheid is exactly the right word to use. Just because many disagree with them and find the term offensive, usually while ignoring the situation in the occupied territories, is no reason to censor them. Lots of people find lots of different things offensive, if everything offensive were censored it'd be an awfully boring and unjust world. Freedom of expression should only be limited in exceptional circumstances like banning hate speech, actual hate speech and not just speech some hate.

Rich

Friday, June 11, 2010 3:24 PM

I am a Queer Jew in Toronto, and I do believe using language that promotes hatred to a nation and a people is counter productive to any possibility for meaningful dialogue. If we have learned anything from history it is the uprising of the nazis coming to power was based on language and false stereo types. The Jews were scape goats for others economic hardship. It started with minipulative language such can be seemed in to the wider dialogue and language that Qaia use in explaining Israeli policies, people...and Jews in general will have wrongful stereotypes about them be reinforced. I thank ken in Paris for his idea, while anti Jewish and Israeli rhetoric is flagrant at this years pride , I will be wearing a legally sound T-shirt stating exactly that Homo against HamAss.Freedom of speech...great idea Ken,Love it!

hannah

Friday, June 11, 2010 3:42 PM

Comparing the situation in Israel to the legal definition apartheid is not a "PR trick." It is a legitimate question that has been posed by many -- including several experts and prominent people. "Apartheid" is defined by the International Criminal Court as a very specific crime against humanity. Look at the definition. Examine Israel's policies and actions towards the Palestinians. Conclusion: It's apartheid! http://tinyurl.com/iiaasahw

Rick

Friday, June 11, 2010 3:40 PM

Hi Hannah - I agree that using language to promote hate against a minority group is not defensible. Nevertheless, criticizing the state of Israel is legitimate. The state of Israel does not get a free pass from criticism because Jews have been, and continue to be, a target of discrimination and hate. Just because one abhors Israel's treatment of Palestinians, it in no way implies that one automatically approves of Hamass or Palestinian violence against Jews. The world is just not as binary as you seem to think it is. I know that you want to conflate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism, but that kind of intellectual slate of hand will not fly with those of us who can think for ourselves. By unfairly censoring and persecuting those who disagree with you, you only hurt your own cause. Let Israel's critics speak and counter their arguments with better arguments (if you have them). Labelling speech with which you disagree as "hate" and then banning it is a wrong headed approach.

GaySolomon

Friday, June 11, 2010 10:42 PM

Akiba-Idols is really a site dedicated to the actual craze that's been going upon in The japanese;Idols. Idols tend to be scantily dressed lady or actually girls (junior idols) appearing on screen in provocative poses, expressions and maybe even situations. Note it's not really precisely porno, but perhaps more of the soft kind of porn that requires no complete nudity and absolutely no penetration whatsoever. Improvements tend to be weekly and include Intravenous as well as Junior idols. Examine us away from www.akiba-Idols.com

Hot

Saturday, June 12, 2010 7:07 PM

It is outrageous to brand Israel an apartheid state. All you need to do is walk down the street in Tel Aviv. There you will see Palestinians and Jews in the same parks, on the same beaches, in the same restaurants, on the same buses, in the same hospitals. They will vote and elect Jewish and Arab MP's; they will read about the arab member of the Supreme Court. Oh, did you mean "in the occupied territories?" You seemed to have left that out on the signs that said "End Israel Apartheid". How convenient. Even then, you use an expanded definition of apartheid, that the average person on the street knows nothing about. "Legitimate critism"? Ha!

BJ

Saturday, June 12, 2010 7:36 PM

Rich
"Lots of people find lots of different things offensive, if everything offensive were censored it'd be an awfully boring and unjust world."
Hey, everyone, this is really important. QuAIA's delegation, which included chants calling for the destruction of Israel, crossed out swastikas that most people associate with the Nazi's, and people wearing military garb, is not merely offensive! According to the City, it creates a poisoned environment. Worse, it promotes the kind of discrimination that so often leads to violence. The same anti discrimination laws that protect us as gays, must also be used to protect Jews.
It's not about being offensive, it about being dangerous.

BJ

Monday, June 14, 2010 2:54 AM

BJ: False.

The City drew no such conclusion. Officials/representatives of the City merely mused about the question.

And note that the Canadian Civil Liberties Association disagrees with the applicability claims. See: http://ccla.org/?p=5098

You claim that Israel is not an apartheid state. However, you provide no real reasoning or evidence. Others have examined Israel closely and concluded that it is, indeed, an apartheid state. See: http://tinyurl.com/iiaasahw

Rick

Thursday, June 17, 2010 8:15 AM

That monstrous group couldn't just leave gay pride for positive gay messages only. Thay had to ruin everything by bringing their messages of hate into pride. And Xtra sides with them! No one is trying to censor them. March against the Jews or any other group on another day or another place but leave our gay pride alone!!

Queero