Wednesday, May 12, 2010 6:30 PM

All tax fundng for our gay pride parade should be withdrawn unless it is free from hate. Can't they simply make a rule limiting gay pride to gay pride?!

Gay med

Wednesday, May 12, 2010 6:12 PM

I certainly agree. Hate has no place in Pride. Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QuAIA) should be permitted to march in the Pride parade group because it is an anti-apartheid and, therefore, anti-hate group. APARTHEID IS HATE. Let freedom of expression, including lawful political speech, prevail!

Rick

Wednesday, May 12, 2010 8:05 PM

Agree. I'd rather lose all the money for OUR parade than have these agitators abuse Pride to push their own ignorant agenda.

jake

Wednesday, May 12, 2010 8:40 PM

This is totally ridiculous. I certainly will never travel to Toronto if the city passes this ridiculous and censoring motion.

Pride is a place for a multitude of voices, whether or not we agree with the statements of the group or not.

Jonny Sopotiuk
Winnipeg, Manitoba

Jonny Sopotiuk

Wednesday, May 12, 2010 10:19 PM

Jake: "Ignorant"? Really? Then you must also consider a number of other people to be "ignorant": Jimmy Carter, Desmond Tutu, Michael Ignatieff, Kyle Rae, Ehud Barak, Naomi Klein, ... All of them have compared Israel to "apartheid" which is clearly defined by the International Criminal Court: http://tinyurl.com/374q3od

Rick

Thursday, May 13, 2010 3:10 AM

Rick
Jimmy Carter took it back(www.haaretz.com/.../...stigmatizing-israel-1.1609) and said "We must recognize Israel's achievements under difficult circumstances, even as we strive in a positive way to help Israel continue to improve its relations with its Arab populations, but we must not permit criticisms for improvement to stigmatize Israel," and Rick your website is not a source

Peter

Thursday, May 13, 2010 3:19 AM

Rick current working English meaning of the word
Etymology: Afrikaans, from apart apart + -heid -hood
Date: 1947

1 : racial segregation; specifically : a former policy of segregation and political and economic discrimination against non-European groups in the Republic of South Africa
2 : separation, segregation <cultural apartheid> <gender apartheid
{www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apartheid}

Peter

Thursday, May 13, 2010 3:09 AM

Rick
Michael Ignatieff interesting Link {network.nationalpost.com/.../...partheid-week.aspx}
and
{www.liberal.ca/.../17617_statement-by-liberal-leader-michael-ignatieff-regarding-israeli-apartheid-week}
so really Michael Ignatieff?

Peter

Thursday, May 13, 2010 3:13 AM

Rick I guess some people change their minds and saw it for what it is or will Grand Wizard Rick play is fallacies cards again

Peter

Thursday, May 13, 2010 3:43 AM

Rick,

I guess two of those people saw it for what it really even if Jimmy Carter and Michael Ignatieff saw the light on this issue and saw the hate in all this so I bet you can't say Jimmy Carter and Michael Ignatieff they saw the light on this issue or Maybe you could answer this Question that was never answered by either the QuAIA or Pro Israel groups then How does a Middle Eastern War have anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada? goes unanswered oddly

Peter

Thursday, May 13, 2010 6:25 AM

The late Martin Luther King Jr. said it best: there is no difference between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. If QuAIA is again allowed to produce placards equating Israel to Nazi Germany, Toronto will have funded and sanctioned an anti-Semitic demonstration Goebbles would have been proud of, while the only Mid-east country where gays are permitted to thrive and celebrate their own Pride Parade, without getting beaten or killed, is Israel.

John Syrtash

Thursday, May 13, 2010 7:48 AM

Except for the word "queer" in their title, is there anything, ANYTHING about QAIA that has to do with gays, gay issues, pride? Nope...except that they would be happy to destroy the ONE state in the Middle East that upholds gay rights!
Ironic? Bizarre? You bet; why should we let QAIA USURP pride for THEIR agenda, when it has absolutely NO positive effects on gays anywhere?

Ken in Paris

Thursday, May 13, 2010 10:27 AM

The problem with the mainstream gay rights movement is that we've become self-obsessed. We think and talk and act only on gay issues (primarily those of gay white men and white lesbians), while ignoring the fact that there is a whole world full of things that aren't ok. One of those things is Israel. Should we really ignore their human rights abuses just because they treat gays ok? Isn't that a really weak position to take? What is being argued here is that gays are in such dire straits that we shouldn't do anything that might upset a country that treats us relatively well, lest they start to hate us again. Also, I think people forget that criticizing Israel is like criticizing any other country, such as the United States or Canada. Israel is a government, not a religion. I understand that people's feelings about Israel are deeply tied into their feelings about Judaism, but that should not stop us from criticizing the actions of a state government, especially when that government is horribly oppressing a large group of people. ~Morgan

Morgan Page

Thursday, May 13, 2010 11:51 AM

I still would like to know why we throw away funding over an issue that has nothing to do with Pride Toronto. I come from Ottawa where Pride is celebrated in the following way. Pride OPttawa owes (and cannot pay) the City and creditors over 50K. The parade has about 35 floats, travels on 2 streets and the party is on a crabgrass patch of land provided by the City. It is fenced in and you are frisked (all liquor and contraband is confiscated and you can be refered to police by City Security guards.) The Party chages outrageous prices for Beer only and you sit in the broiling sun listening to talentless morons belt out obcenities( No Cyndi Lauper in Ottawa. Most people leave after about 1/2 hour of this, and VOILA! thats Pride Ottawa. Does this sound like Fun!!!!. Thats why I don't want Toronto to lose funding and thats why I would ask this group to get the hell out of here.

Bryan Charlebois

Thursday, May 13, 2010 11:52 AM

Peter - Commissioned by the Government of South Africa. Read it and weep sucka. http://www.hsrc.ac.za/Document-3202.phtml

J Roman

Thursday, May 13, 2010 11:07 AM

@J Roman
I just pointing out that both Michael Ignatieff and Jimmy Carter had taken it back and saw it for what it was but it does not answer the question how A Middle Eastern War has anything to do with Gay Rights? this goes rather unanswered and also the link is not a government study from South Africa they simply provided the money I believe the Israel Film fund does the same for all those anti Israel films during Israel Apartheid Week and its really funny how you people don't keep up with the news {www1.voanews.com/.../...s-Have-Begun-93226704.html}

Peter

Thursday, May 13, 2010 12:12 PM

@J Roman

Here is the overview:
www.hsrc.ac.za/Corporate_Information-45.phtml

Again they just got funding and was not a government report

Peter

Thursday, May 13, 2010 1:57 PM

Rick, are you clueless? Kyle Rae has been pressuring Pride to get QuAIA out of the event. He doesn't want the city to defund it on that basis, but he has been active about getting them out of the event. Maybe you can refur us to a time he has said Israel is an aprthid country. I am aware of no such occasion. Naomi Klien is a self-promoting media whore as are a few of the QuAIA people, and is definitely clueless. But here's something. If people really care about Palestinian Queers, how come they are protesting against Israel, which has the best record of Gay Rights in the Middle East instead of against Hamas and the Palestinian Authority, which persecutes Queers and tolerates their murder. Israel is the place where Queers go for sanctuary in the Middle East. Pride isn't the place to attack a pro-Queer country in favour of Queer persecutors. You might be more at home at a KKK meeting.

Bones

Thursday, May 13, 2010 1:03 PM

Hate group? QuAIA? Maybe calling a country an "aparthied" country when it isn't for the purpose of promating hate against it and pressuring it IS hate. So QuAIA would be a hate-group.

Bones

Thursday, May 13, 2010 2:31 PM

Re: Kyle Rae on QuAIA

In 2009, Toronto city councillor Kyle Rae explained to the Toronto Sun:
“[T]he use of the word apartheid ... is a description of a political regime that is happening on the West Bank.”
“It’s not about hate.”
“[T]here are Jews as well as non-Jews who are members of this organization who are opposed to the Israeli government’s actions, including the building of the controversial West-Bank barrier.”
“There are Palestinian queer people who are living under that situation. It’s a political issue but it does have a gay dynamic to it.”

Rick

Thursday, May 13, 2010 2:22 PM

I would suggest to all the people asking "How is this a gay issue" to do the following:

1. google "QuAIA"
2. click on the first result
3. Read QuAIA's FAQ

It's one thing to disagree with QuAIA's perspective, it's another thing completely to call for QuAIA to be banned without bothering to take two minutes to actually see what QuAIA is all about. Google is your friend - it helps cut down on that whole willful ignorance thing.

Brian

Thursday, May 13, 2010 2:33 PM

Re: Michael Ignatieff on Israeli apartheid

In 2002, Michael Ignatieff wrote for The Guardian that:
"When I looked down at the West Bank, at the settlements like Crusader forts occupying the high ground, at the Israeli security cordon along the Jordan river closing off the Palestinian lands from Jordan, I knew I was not looking down at a state or the beginnings of one, but at a Bantustan, one of those pseudo-states created in the dying years of apartheid to keep the African population under control."

Rick

Thursday, May 13, 2010 2:47 PM

Re: Definition of "apartheid" according to the International Criminal Court (ICC)

"The crime of apartheid" means inhumane acts of a character similar to those referred to in paragraph 1 [of the Rome Statute; see: untreaty.un.org/cod/icc/statute/99_corr/2.htm], committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.

Rick

Thursday, May 13, 2010 2:53 PM

Erratum:
Above, "of the Rome Statute" should have read "of Article 7 of the Rome Statute".

Rick

Thursday, May 13, 2010 2:51 PM

"Bones":

#1 - Re: "If people really care about Palestinian Queers..." = red herring argument, which is a logical fallacy. See: http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/#Red%20Herring

#2 - Re: "So QuAIA would be a hate-group." Then call the police. Hate crimes are very serious violations of the law. For more information, see: www.torontopolice.on.ca/.../hatecrime.php -- but be prepared to provide concrete evidence.

#3 - Re: "Israel is the place where Queers go for sanctuary in the Middle East." Let's see your evidence. And, regardless, Israel is hardly a bastion of queer liberation. See: http://tinyurl.com/294b9tg & http://tinyurl.com/2e5q2wv & http://tinyurl.com/2deu984 & http://tinyurl.com/26b5fmj

Rick

Thursday, May 13, 2010 2:43 PM

"Peter":

Re: "Again they [www.hsrc.ac.za/Corporate_Information-45.phtml] just got funding and was not a government report"

Um, yes -- and that's a good thing. It's precisely how independent academic research is -- and should be -- conducted. Canada operates in the same way.

The Human Sciences Research Council of South Africa is highly credible. Note that the Congress of South African Trade Unions also agrees that Israel is an apartheid state; see: http://tinyurl.com/yl8u3wu

As far as I'm concerned, the South Africans, including Desmond Tutu [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1957644.stm], know apartheid when they see it! And they see it in Israel.

Rick

Thursday, May 13, 2010 2:51 PM

What does QuAIA have to do with Pride and being LGBTQ?

That's easy to answer.

#1 - Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QuAIA) is a group of LGBTQ campaigners working for human rights in Israel/Palestine. The very fact that QuAIA's membership is LGBTQ qualifies it for full participation in Pride. Don't believe me? Check the record.

#2 - Israeli apartheid worsens conditions for LGBTQ Palestinians and denies them access to equality rights. Israel does not extend equality rights to all LGBTQ people within the borders that Israel controls. Ending apartheid is the first step towards ensuring equality rights for all LGBT people in Israel/Palestine.

#3 - LGBTQ rights are human rights. All human rights are connected. A violation to human rights in one place is a threat to human rights everywhere -- which is why it's called the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

For more information, visit QuAIA's website at:
http://www.quaia.org/

Rick

Thursday, May 13, 2010 3:59 PM

"John Syrtash":

#1 - "The late Martin Luther King Jr. said it best..." argument is a hoax -- and also a logical fallacy. See: http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article2356.shtml

#2 - "If QuAIA is again allowed to produce placards equating Israel to Nazi Germany..." is an argument premised upon a falsehood. Therefore, it is not a valid argument. QuAIA did not produce any such placards. That said, others have certainly compared Israel's policies/actions to Nazi Germany -- like this Holocaust survivor: http://tinyurl.com/yecolvq

#3 - "[T]here is no difference between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism..." makes know sense. It is an illogical, and therefore invalid, argument. Zionism a political ideology. Anti-Semitism is a form of racism. Criticizing particular political ideas/beliefs is NOT the same thing as attacking an ethnic/racialized group of people. Note that not all Jews are Zionists; many Jew are very critical of Zionism. See, for example: http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/ & http://www.independentjewishvoices.ca/

#4 - "[T]he only Mid-east country where gays are permitted to thrive and celebrate their own Pride Parade, without getting beaten or killed, is Israel." First of all, this is a red herring argument -- which is a logical fallacy. Secondly, do you read the news? See: http://tinyurl.com/39h7adl & http://tinyurl.com/382u9bh

Rick

Thursday, May 13, 2010 3:01 PM

@Rick

funny how this comes from your website and Rick Far left groups always say that Hamas or the Palestinian National Authority are the elected government of the Palestinians if this is a rights issue then they should bring it up with them also Rick it is the same Michael Ignatieff who says in 2010 that Apartheid towards Israel is false so is the Same Jimmy Carter and Rick that South African Union is not the South African Government or is the funding of that report was a issued government report I believe the Israel Film Fund makes many anti Israel movies that pop up during Israel Apartheid Week and gets funding by the Israeli Government. but Rick how does a Middle Eastern War have anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada? your not answer this by quoting the QuAIA website or are your not giving evidence that Israel is to blame for the Treatment of Palestinian Queers it sounds more like propaganda and Rick again Far left groups do always say that Hamas or the Palestinian National Authority are the legal government of the Palestinians and since they are the government they are the ones who have to deal with equality but again it not Israel's problem if they don't want to deal with equality issues in Palestinian society

Peter

Thursday, May 13, 2010 3:25 PM

(Continued...)
What does QuAIA have to do with Pride and being LGBTQ?

#4 - To distract from its severe human rights violations -- the latest having been documented here: http://tinyurl.com/3xo3j8n -- Israel is engaged in a "pink-washing" campaign. That is, Israel is aggressively promoting itself as a bastion of liberal democracy and Western "civilization" specifically by advertising its tolerance/acceptance of LGBTQ people. This is problematic for two reasons. First of all, it's not true that all LGBTQ people within the borders under Israel's control have equal rights, and it's certainly not the case that Israel is a homophobia-free society; it has a long way to go, even by Canadian standards. Second, I personally take great offense to seeing LGBTQ oppression being used by a government (that itself is rife with homophobia) as a propaganda tool to hide human rights violations and war crimes; thus, I say: "Not in my name."

Rick

Thursday, May 13, 2010 3:16 PM

@ Rick anti gau discrimination is still a problem in Canada

interesting links also anti-gay is still a problem here in Canada are we gay friendly For Example the conservative government cutting Pride Funding for example or even gay bashing that the police take their time investigating in Alberta since Xtra does cover these things events in Canada. Well Rick Discrimination is a problem everywhere not just in Israel it happens here in Canada more then you might think then because of that I think Canada is Apartheid to because we have problems with discrimination like in any other Western Country guess what we are not perfect either but I remind that when I live in my home on native land for example

Peter

Thursday, May 13, 2010 3:07 PM

@ Rick you sound like a lobbyist

So how does a Middle Eastern War have anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada?

your giving propaganda not answers and Rick Hamas has not done the same either even when the UN told do them(Goldstone Report rings some bells) too but I guess Hamas really Gay Friendly then too and again Rick you will make this guy {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels} really happy since you sound a lot like him

Peter

Thursday, May 13, 2010 3:04 PM

"Peter":

Re: "[F]unny how this comes from your website..."
I don't get it. So what? My website provides references. I cite, for example, the website of the International Criminal Court. Take a look.

Re: "Far left groups always say..."
This is a red herring argument, which is a logical fallacy. Thus, the argument is invalid and irrelevant. See: http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/

Re: Michael Ignatieff
Yes, indeed: Funny, isn't it? When Ignatieff was an independent professor/researcher and the head of a prestigious human rights centre, he likened Israel to South African apartheid. Then, when he became a politicians and Prime Minister-wannabe, he changed his position. Which Ignatieff do you think is more credible...? I guess that's for you to decide. Note that Ignatieff version 2.0 has never bothered to justify his revised position with evidence.

Re: Jimmy Carter
Do you have any source demonstrating that Carter specifically rejected his original choice of the word "apartheid"? I haven't seen any such text. His "apology" was only that "we must not permit criticisms for improvement to stigmatize Israel." And one is left wondering about the timing of his "apology": Did it have anything to do with his grandson running for a Georgia state senate seat? One can only speculate, I suppose...

Re: "South African Union is not the South African Government..."
That's obvious. But so what? This argument of yours is a logical fallacy and therefore, invalid and irrelevant. See above.

Re: "I believe the Israel Film Fund makes many anti Israel movies..."
Again, so what? This argument of yours is a logical fallacy and therefore, invalid and irrelevant. See above.

Rick

Thursday, May 13, 2010 3:54 PM

"Peter":

You must really enjoy running around in illogical circles of falsity...

Re: "[Y]ou sound like a lobbyist..."
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. I am an activist, though.

Re: "So how does a Middle Eastern War have anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada?"
This has already been answered in great detail. See above, and also see: http://www.quaia.org/

Re: "[Y]our giving propaganda not answers..."
Um, no. I'm providing facts. With references. And according to sound principles of logic.

Re: "Hamas has not done the same..."
Who cares about Hamas? Nobody is supporting/promoting Hamas, including QuAIA. Yet again: A red herring argument from you, which is a logical fallacy and therefore both invalid and irrelevant.

Re: Goldstone
Since you brought it up, Jewish Voice for Peace (USA-based organization) states: "JVP believes it is a well-researched, fair-minded report. It accuses both Israel and Hamas of war crimes and possible crimes against humanity, while rightfully placing greater emphasis on Israeli violations of international law, especially regarding the killing of civilians."

Re: Goebbels
So now you're calling people Nazis... because they disagree with you? Wow: That's original.

Rick

Thursday, May 13, 2010 4:28 PM

I am curious. What would happen to the participants if a gay pride parade was held in Palestine or the Gaza strip? What would happen to the participants if a gay pride parade was held in Isreal? Where would the participants be treated better? Where would the participants not be killed? Have you asked yourselves this question? And yet, you all support the country that would kill the participants and try to shame the country that would treat the participants fairly and well.

Vince

Thursday, May 13, 2010 4:15 PM

Vince, since this is just curiousity, some gay participant might be stabbed... that already happened in Israel.

zezi

Thursday, May 13, 2010 4:09 PM

How fantastic to have these "members" of our community say they would rather not have pride at all than to have a small minority voice its opinion... I guess you really couldn't care less about gay rights or gay celebrations... I guess you being queer matters that little to you... are you even queer? QaIA are queer, they are part of our community, many of them participate in it. You, who want to silence them are a disgrace.

zezi

Thursday, May 13, 2010 4:16 PM

Israel killed thousands of people in Gaza and Lebanon and they thought, delusional, they would be able to convince the world that it was ok.... that it was justified... not only did they fail everywhere, but the jewish organizations against israel's policies multiplied in members... They killed thousands of people, many children, and someone here thinks we shouldn't stigmatize it? We shouldn't criticize it? How about they change their policies NOW.

zezi

Thursday, May 13, 2010 4:39 PM

As this is an ongoing trend here... Ken, I thought you came over for the summer... it seems you are still in France, how is this your Pride again? I mean the people of QaIA are active members of our community, they are here year around, they aren't tourists like you... the do things even beyond QaIA... what exactly have you done for our queer community in Toronto.

zezi

Thursday, May 13, 2010 4:59 PM

"Peter":

Re: "anti-gay is still a problem here in Canada" & "when I live in my home on native land"

True, on both points. So what? These arguments are logical fallacies: red herring arguments, meaning they are both invalid and irrelevant. Many of the same activists who are campaigning for human rights in Israel/Palestine are also working (or have also worked) for LGBTQ and Aboriginal rights here in Canada. Are you working on any of these issues -- or are you just grasping for arguments to justify your baseless position?

Rick

Thursday, May 13, 2010 4:19 PM

Israel controls the borders of Gaza, it stops children's shoes from crossing the border... crayolas, what else? When Israel starts treating its neighbours as equals I will no longer care about QaIA... and you know what? When Israel really treats muslims as equal, the likes of Peter and Ken will no longer care either because it would be evident... you won't have to spend precious time defending a racist, murdering, government... if I were you I'd start pushing for change... so that you don't have to constantly defend it.

zezi

Thursday, May 13, 2010 4:55 PM

"Vince":

Re: "What would happen to the participants if a gay pride parade was held in Palestine or the Gaza strip?"
It's a hypothetical question, so who knows? I gather it's also an implicit argument that's unsubstantiated and that's also a logical fallacy: a red herring argument, which is both invalid and irrelevant.

"What would happen to the participants if a gay pride parade was held in Isreal [sic]?"
THIS:
www.haaretz.com/.../...el-s-gay-community-1.281232
AND THIS:
blogs.reuters.com/.../

Re: "Where would the participants be treated better?"
Again, this is a hypothetical question. So, who knows -- and why does it matter? No human rights violations are acceptable, anywhere.

Re: "Where would the participants not be killed?"
Again, hypothetical and a logical fallacy -- BUT the stabbings in Israel suggest that a parade-goer could be killed, there.

Re: "[Y]ou all support the country that would kill the participants..."
Palestine, Gaza, West Bank: None of these are a "country." That's part of the problem. Israel and the USA deny statehood to the Palestinian people. To make matters worse, Israeli apartheid worsens conditions for LGBT Palestinians. And, to be clear, I don't support the human rights violations of any country or regime.

Rick

Thursday, May 13, 2010 5:28 PM

"Peter":
The USA dictionary, Merriam-Webster, can be useful -- but not for a legal definition of "apartheid." For that definition, we must rely upon the internationally accepted one as provided by the International Criminal Court.

"Ken in Paris":
You wrote that QuAIA "would be happy to destroy the ONE state in the Middle East that upholds gay rights!" Do you have any evidence to support this claim -- or is it entirely baseless? QuAIA does not seek to "destroy" Israel. Rather, QuAIA seeks an end to apartheid in Israel. Check your facts. Furthermore, have you examined Israel's record on LGBTQ rights? Israel is hardly a bastion of queer liberation. Both the government and the society are rife with homophobia and hate-motivated violence.

"Bones":
You conclude that "QuAIA would be a hate-group." Do you have any evidence to support that claim -- or is it entirely baseless? Note that criticizing a government policy/action -- including apartheid -- is not "hate." Toronto city councillor Kyle Rae made this same point; see above. On the question of whether Israel is an apartheid state, there is plenty of evidence and many opinions leading to that conclusion. As a starting point, see the primer produced by Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East (http://www.cjpme.org/) available for download in PDF from: www.cjpme.org/DisplayDocument.aspx

Rick

Thursday, May 13, 2010 8:47 PM

"Peter":

You've been very quick to point out that the South African government does not consider Israel to be an apartheid state, implying that the South African government's opinion is very important to the debate.

Well, here you go:

"South Africa sees the above stipulations and the Military Order as a gross violation of an individual's human rights, and it is reminiscent of pass laws under apartheid South Africa. South Africa, because of its history, is particularly sensitive to the infringement of human rights that the carrying of a permit implies and should this 'permit' not be the correct one, the unilateral punishments that can be brought to bear on an individual by the state, without the individual having recourse to an independent court of law."

SOURCE:
http://www.dfa.gov.za/docs/2010/isra0422.html

Rick

Thursday, May 13, 2010 10:55 PM

@ Rick the lobbyist also has illogical cycles such as the Propaganda

Can you read?(http://www.dfa.gov.za/docs/2010/isra0422.html) that's a media release not a South African Policy it states it a media statement not a policy again it might be comparable to some policies that South Africa had under Apartheid but it does also says "The new order reportedly defines anyone who enters the West Bank illegally as an infiltrator," So I believe if someone came into Canada illegally we do have a similar policy on immigration for example I believe if they don't have documents with the immigration department they will be deported. The United States has a similar policy dealing with Mexicans and are currently building a wall to keep them out. If they are founded by the police or immigration they get deported and I guess its rather easy to link Apartheid with that one too then (Are Canada and the United States Apartheid and they could they are countries founded on someone else land by Europeans on Native land ) I also believe Palestinians do the same to Israel Civilians when they enter a Palestinian City for example But Rick again Michael Ignatieff as Liberal Leader again says it false, so the Jimmy Carter and Rick again other Leftest Groups always say that Hamas and the Palestinian National Authority are the legal government of the Palestinians People and as a government they are the ones that have to enforce their Rights and also you act a lot like the Israel Lobby you both use Human Suffering to justify anything you do either it be the holocaust or the suffering of Palestinians and back it up with half truths as well. Funny thing so far you still can't give me a balance answer to the Question on How a Middle Eastern War has anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada just more propaganda like the Israel Lobby does as well or even Joseph Goebbels did and Rick again you using Israeli Media again proving even more how Israel is not Apartheid since media under South Africa Apartheid was heavily censored and you are just pointing out discrimination that happens in any other country such as Canada and Yes Rick any attacks that are committed against Queers in Israel are condemned by everyone in the Israeli government including the Jewish Religious Parties and even the Arab Parties that are elected members unlike what Blacks had in South Africa under Apartheid

@ Zezi

Was the bombing of Dresden a War Crime? please note that the allies which including Canada, United Kingdom and the United State killed nearly 250,000 civilian in only a few days and also the United States for example target civilians of the Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki killing nearly 135,000 Japanese Civilians in nearly on two different days again civilians again in the West even in Canada nether were considered War Crimes oddly and they were or in Sudan were nearly 400,000-800,000 civilians mostly Black non Arabs/ non Muslims were killed in Darfur between 2003-2010 and yet Sudan is not a Apartheid for targeting Black Sudanese Civilians in that region and the Government of Sudan wanting to kick out all the non Muslims or Non Arabs?( you say Israel does the same) I know you are going to resort to Childish Name Callings since that seems to be your major or masters and if you do so please go here they can help you with this issue (http://www.mtsinai.on.ca/consumerhealth/mental.htm or unless you don't want the help from those Evil Zionist to control you mind go here:http://www.camh.net/)

Peter

Friday, May 14, 2010 3:54 AM

Well, it seems we've come full circle. As usual, Peter won't respond to arguments directly with logic and evidence. He's scraping the bottom of the bucket, now.

So, he just recycles the same old illogical arguments -- sometimes with new filler. (Now he's onto US-Mexico relations, for example. WTF?! Hello? We were talking about Israel/Palestine.)

And you can tell he's losing his grip because his sentences are all beginning to slide into one another and he's Beginning To Capitalize Everything. Oh, and he's also now directing us to websites about mental health. (Huh?!)

Let's not waste any more time on Peter. It's clear he's got nothing left.

Rick

Friday, May 14, 2010 3:29 PM

@ Rick the Lobbyist again your fallacies are so amazing you just stand opposition that your problem

Peter

Saturday, May 15, 2010 12:02 AM

@ Rick and please you recycle the same garbage too so I guess you have nothing left either

Peter