Tuesday, April 27, 2010 11:09 PM

go to Gaza or the West Bank

WTF

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:50 AM

What a sad day it will be when queers can't express themselves!

Food for thought - why can a pro Israel group march in the parade (that in a roundabout way isn't a very Palestinian friendly message) and an anti Israel or pro Palestinian group can't?

Is it becuase of the stereotypes society has attached to Philistine and the Arabic world??

Aren't queers stereotyped? And isn't that what Pride is suppose to be about - breaking down barriers?

Oh wait...not Toronto Pride...it's about hot boys, corporate recognition of the pink dollar and conforming!

Ex-Prider

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 11:36 AM

Ex-Prider - You have no idea what you are talking about. The Parade is not just for any and every message to be displayed for all to see - messages must conform with the City of Toronto's by-laws, the criminal code of Canada, and Pride Toronto's Mission, Vision, and Values. Granted, sometimes this makes things seem unfair, but they're not doing this to be unfair. And as far as "corporate recognition of the pink dollar" - I would like to see you put on a festival even a QUARTER the size of Pride Toronto does as a not-for-profit organization without corporate funding.

Annoyed

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 11:16 AM

Annoyed, As has been said over and over again, if the Parade doesn't conform with "City of Toronto's by-laws and the criminal code of Canada" then shouldn't someone be fined or sued? I wonder how many queer people are betraying Pride rather than taking legal action against QaIA? If they have broken laws, shouldn't they be made accountable? I think we all support the courts figuring it out? Or, don't we? Why don't you? And why are queer people attacking Pride and not QaIA? Could it be that there is no legal basis for what they are saying? The Civil Liberties Association seems to believe there is no basis for banning them. And, since I don't see any legal action against the group, I would have to agree. After all, some of the pro-Israel bunch are lawyers (Gladstone)... he must know there is no way to prosecute this because no law has been broken. If no law has been broken, this is an issue of free speech, which means that someone doesn't want others to exercise their rights to express themselves. You can be annoyed all you want.

Tam

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 12:07 PM

Tam - You missed one of the more important points... being in line with the organization's Mission, Vision, and Values. Good try though.

Annoyed

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 12:04 PM

Tam: Exactly! Toronto Police are always on hand at the parade to enforce the law!!

Annoyed... your statement on "messages must conform with the City of Toronto's by-laws"...if they are breaking the law - why haven't they been arrested? If we as Queers didn't push the envelope and always conformed - what rights would we have today?

Annoyed - also, I agree - you can't put on an event of that size without government and corporate support - BUT YOU CAN restrict and limit the saturation of logos, branding and viability - there is a difference of accepting support and selling out!! Did you see one of the stages last year - not ONE mention of Pride Toronto - but wasn't there lots of corporate logos??

Ex-Prider

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 12:39 PM

Police can be on hand to enforce the law - I agree - and they are. But, that being said, it is rather difficult to stop a parade of that size for an arrest, not to mention that doing so would not exactly be 100% supported by the viewers of the parade, I'm sure. And most definitely, envelopes have to sometimes be pushed - but pushed against the very organization that supports and stands out for queers in the city more than any other? An organization that accomplishes more for queer rights and freedoms then most people realize? Why attack that organization? And you may be able to limit the saturation of logos across the festival grounds - BUT if your sponsor requests it and, being a not-for-profit, you NEED the funding to continue doing what you do for the community, then what are you to say to the sponsor? I'm not saying that I am on either side of this - I just don't really understand why so many want to attack Pride Toronto after everything they do (and have done) for queers in Canada - and the world.

Annoyed

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 2:02 PM

I didn't miss it. It appears that the board of Pride Toronto has ruled that it is... I guess you aren't well informed... and the Pro-Israel group shouldn't be telling gay people how to run our Pride. AND, I am glad you agree that they have done nothing criminal or that contradicts city bylaws. Now, if you have a valid claim against QaIA, sue them... that you don't shows that you are just trying to get your way.

Tam

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 2:30 PM

If our Pride has to become a third of its size... I wonder how our sponsors are going to feel... maybe the beer gardens will stop selling beer at Pride...hmmm... I think not...

Tam

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 2:21 PM

I guess Annoyed, you are seeing that we aren't all willing to pay the price for our sponsor money if that means censorship... and, if they broke the law last year, they could have been arrested by now... and if they didn't... why are you even threatening them?

Tam

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 2:48 PM

The only people attacking Pride Toronto are the people who want to take its funding away... I love Pride Toronto... we made it, it isn't just an organization, it is OUR organization... get it.

Tam

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 2:46 PM

everyone.
Does it make sense to even pursue this debate when blind faith is what you're arguing against when it comes to those asking for the removal of QuAIA from Pride? What a few other posters oppose are not really grounded in any facts only fear and paranoia. Unfortunately, they are bullies and powerful bullies who can mobilize bozos like Smitherman, Mammolitti, Sue Ann Levy, Kyle Rae and Rob Ford. The issue here is whether or not Pride can be dictated to by politicians, funders and lobbyists who want to reduce the diverse voices in the community. Some of these communities I agree with and some of them don't. It is a issue of censorship and bullying and if the funders withdraw their funds and the people opposed to inclusion stay home...we are looking at a much better Pride whatever that will be. I will not be engaging anyone who is an apologist for Israel anymore. It's like trying to tell a child that Santa doesn't exist. It only breaks the child's heart and eventually the child has to admit that the whole idea of Santa Claus just doesn't work. For me this is an issues of censorship and quashing freedom of expression. It's also using the power of two or more politicians who in the past have not shown any support to the queer community to threaten Pride...or letting queers who work for rags like the Sun spread lies about what Pride is about. It's just taking people a little longer to realize that there is no Santa Claus, but sooner or later they will. And if they don't, man, they will continue to look foolish and continue to make queers spend energy on fighting amongst ourselves instead of against the systems and people that oppress us here and globally.

loki

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 3:33 PM

Tam - You are wrong. The funders are not the only ones attacking the organization. The Facebook group that went up recently about "censorship" of Pride were not funders. Again - Good try. And that group was not very well informed since the by-law that was put in place that sparked that backlash was already a part of the organization's policies anyway - It just wasn't a by-law. I do have to ask though - why are you asking if I am threatening the QaIA? I haven't said anything to threaten them. I was just stating a point about the organization's standpoint on this issue. And - lastly - I am quite well informed on these issues and others, which is why I chose to address this one with you. I am not trying to get "my way" with anything - Just state a viewpoint - That's all. You don't have to agree with me - Like I said, I just don't understand attacking that organization (Pride Toronto) is all. It seems relatively foolish to me. If you don't like the way that it is run, why not go apply to work with them or volunteer with them? Have your voice heard. They don't seem like the type of organization to ignore a voice.

Annoyed

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 3:21 PM

PS - You need funding to apply to close a parking lot to MAKE it into a beer garden or a park into a stage ground. That being said, there would be no beer garden to sell beer without the money to build it. Thus - if you want anything close to what it is now, you need sponsors - or donations.

Annoyed

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 3:25 PM

Pride will look very different without sponsorship. What's that about giving Blockorama more space?

Karl

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 3:09 PM

It's easy for the lunatic fringe of our community to condemn Pride for being too sexy, too sanitized, too corporate, too straight and on and on... But what they fail to recognize is that Pride also creates employment opportunities (for vendors, security, artists/talent etc.), it cushions our local business community, it brings in tourists, and it's full economic impact cannot be overlooked. Maybe some would prefer a 100% grassroots, all-serious, uber-political rally to satisfy the aggro types, but then who the hell would drive all the way from Sudbury for that?? Public funding and corporate sponsorships are extremely important to the success of Pride and those who disagree live in an anti-establishment bubble. (and one other thing, ROB FORD isn't interested in supporting Pride NO MATTER who marched. he is not an ally, he does not respect queer people or our contribution to the city of Toronto, and I urge everybody NOT to vote for him.)

Ryan

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 3:29 PM

Well said, Ryan. Well said, indeed.

Annoyed

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 4:51 PM

Oh Ryan...your comment on how "It's easy for the lunatic fringe of our community to condemn Pride for..." is a a bit dramatic!

Ex-Prider

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 4:02 PM

Annoyed, Pride Toronto has come to the decision that it is not in the business of censoring us after we wouldn't put up with its decision. We, the queer community, was going on as usual allowing groups to express political opinions as we have ALWAYS done. It was the Pro-Israel group that organized itself to change OUR PRIDE and they almost managed it but OUR COMMUNITY, BY AND LARGE, did not like it and complained. We are Pride and Pride doesn't do stuff for queer rights without us. We made Pride, no one gave us Pride, get it? Not the sponsors and not the far right pro-Israel groups that btw say they love us but are also big supporters of Harper who isn't a big fan of us and of the extremist Christians in the US who don't like us very much either. Where is the support? Why not tell all those evangelical christians who support the state of Israel that you don't care for their support if they do not also change their attitude towards gay rights? That, as an aside, so that the Pro-Israel part doesn't pass itself as our friend when it is convenient. The issue is still one of human rights... Israel can love us, and it doesn't, but we care about human rights and free speech. If there are no vendor revenues, no big shows, no money for hotels, it will be because you pushed us... and the queer community might support Pride organizers right now, but WE ARE PRIDE... we can move Pride. By the way, Annoyed, are you in Pro-Israel groups condemning them for attacking Pride? From attacking us? From potentially creating a mess for vendors, beer gardens (the beer sponsors will pay for them don't you worry), hotels, etc? For attacking an entire event because they don't agree with the message of one group of people who haven't broken any laws, who haven't broken any city by-laws? Or is it that you would rather see Pride die than hear an opposing view? Are you even queer? Do you even care about your community? Because you seem to be willing to throw it to the dogs so that one human rights group doesn't get to criticize a state.

Tam

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 5:36 PM

Throw it to the dogs? Wow - Now who's being the dramatic one?! I really don't care for hypocrisy. For your information, not that it really is any of your business, I am queer, and I am a proud supporter of our community and have been for a long time. And I am not a member of any of the groups you mentioned. And yes, we are Pride, BUT we also essentially outsource the organization of our festival to a queer group within the community and thus do not maintain full control of this process - if you do not like the way this group is run, voice your opinion, volunteer, do anything but just sitting there and complaining. And they didn't decide not to censor the community because the community wouldn't put up with it - they changed the decision for other reasons (not to mention that you already have the WHOLE by-law confused - read up on it instead of just listening to what others say or what you read on Facebook - You might just learn something). Just because they did this once doesn't mean that they will cave to pressure every single time they make a decision and the community doesn't necessarily like it. Don't underestimate me - I posted my view for a reason and am likely more informed on these issues than you are - rest assured. You seem to be writing as though you think I do not support Pride or the community though - where in fact you are very wrong. Anyway - we clearly have different viewpoints on these issues and will never come to an agreement, so I will leave it at this. Hope you have yourself a great rest of your day and enjoy Pride 2010.

Annoyed

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 5:08 PM

I love when Queers use the Trickle Down Theory to support Pride..yes there are jobs created by Pride...who last I heard asked the artists at Blockorama to perform for free!!!, but yes some greasy food vendors and rainbow keyring sellers can make some coin...don't get me wrong..I'm not against people making money, but if the only reason Pride exists is for straight people to come an sell crap, we should rename it Pride JobFair and help people looking for real jobs find them.

loki

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 5:38 PM

Annoyed, I do a lot of things for Pride. Pride relies on community groups for performances, to participate on its parade, etc. We made Pride, and from what queer people did, an organization of volunteers and paid individuals arose. They aren't a close organization that does us a favour. They are responsible to the community. I do plenty of volunteer work for the queer community. So does the board of Pride. They did not deserve to be singled out by the Pro-Israel group to silence QaIA. They have said they are not in the business of censoring people. Both co-chairs of the board said this publically. To turn things around for you, why not leave it at that? Why continue to pressure Pride by contacting the city (who acted mediocredly by saying something without carrying out an investigation) and our funders? What do you think we should do Annoyed, when someone says you either do what we want or we will seek to destroy you? Should we always budge? Do you know how people who fight for our rights run Pride and have run Pride? That means the present board is continuing on a legacy of those who came before them. It also means that you have a huge contingent of people versed on human rights who are not going to be pushed around. What you have to ask yourself is why, if no laws have been broken, they are going after one of OUR groups. A group that is full of queer people (it is their parade too).

Tam

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:54 PM

Free speech? ... well QIAI has 364 days of the year to yammer their message on the street corners... where's the free speech problem? Why do they need to manipulate Pride into a forum for their own political agenda,which has NOTHING to do with GAYNESS? If it were a message about gay issues, that would AT LEAST make sense.
Since QIAI is primarily attacking the only country in the Middle East that DOES allow gays a decent life, the QIAI are not only misplaced in their GAY allegiances ... but they are going to spoil the party for everyone with their selfishness. And if I held up a sign saying "Gays against Muslim hypocrites", ya think I wouldn't be forced out of the parade completely? Dream on... you PC hordes.
I hope they City Council DOES pull the budget; It might make some people wake up to the PRIORITIES of Pride Day... one of which SHOULD be to stick to GAY issues, and support the pro-gay factions instead of the homophobes.

Ken in Paris

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:53 PM

Hey! Why not have lots MORE free speech? How about "Greek Gays against Armenian Genocide Liars?" And "French Gays for Sarkozy against wearing the Burka"? How about "Holocaust Deniers Unite!" How about "White Supremacists for closing the borders"?

I'm sure we can find enough "causes" to militate about during Pride that will continue to do what QIAI has already managed to do: sour the vibes to the point where what should be a gay festival will be leaving a foul taste in just about everyone's mouth on every side. Their USURPATION of Pride for their own narrow non-gay issue is not worth defending.

Ken in Paris

Thursday, April 29, 2010 1:34 AM

Well Ken, I am for a group against American genocide... they have killed a whole bunch of people. The thing is, not the Americans nor the City of Toronto, nor anyone else would try to censor them.... because the US might have killed a lot of people, but it doesn't have a bunch of thugs trying to stop people from protesting against its policies.

Tam

Thursday, April 29, 2010 12:39 PM

ken in Paris...again, someone tries to create groups that push the boundaries and justify why QuAIA shouldn't be in Pride. Comical...if there are these groups in existence and they don't cross the line between what's legal and what's not, let them march. Sorry to hear you feel that Pride is soured by their QuAIA's inclusion...there are many that would disagree with you and say they make Pride richer...of course most of the folks against inclusion and discussion are against disagreement. Pride is big enough that it can accommodate a bunch of Pro Israeli state marchers and groups against the current policies of the Israel. Remember, it was a Zionist who threw that bottle at the QuAIA member,not the other way around. Come on, the Tories march in the parade and that disgusts me to no end but it has to be because believe it or not, there are queer Tories. Stop pretending Pride just came about out of some Martha Stewart spin-off show and realize that its roots are in the politics of people who spoke up against what was wrong. My Pride includes politics and if yours doesn't there are a lot of other diversions for you to partake in during Pride.

It's a futile discussion to try to talk to people who support the current policies of Israel and its pinkwash of the issues. I understand that this paranoia and fear is based in history and the majority of those opposed to the inclusion of QuAIA are Jewish. So as much as I want you to acknowledge Pride's history, I acknowledge yours and understand the paranoia and fear that Jewish people might feel about anything that threatens Israel's policies. You just can't win because we are talking about blind faith in what Israel is and mixing politics with faith. And faith fucks everyone up every time. I might be against the current US policies, but I am not calling for the dismantling of the USA..that would be ridiculous. It would take a considerable leap in logic to believe that...but this blind faith that those opposed to the inclusion of QuAIA, understandably mostly Jews, is an impediment to any progressive moves toward changing the barriers to Human rights in the Palestine and the world.

loki

Thursday, April 29, 2010 12:44 PM

Join this and Make Pride even more Prideful...what is those straight people want anyway...enquiring minds want to know!!!

http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=113025575395588&ref=ts

roy

Friday, April 30, 2010 9:42 PM

You are wasting your time in responding to Ken in Paris. He is simply a garden variety bigot who never misses an opportunity to spout filth about Muslims. Not just anti-gay Muslims, but *all* Muslims.

Nathanial